'I know dogs, and if the owner knows the dog is aggressive, they have to do something,' he said.

Try getting your own dogs under control before you lecture others. You allow your own very aggressive dogs to fight with the other dogs on the beach and take pleasure when they injure them. This dog attacked you because of what you have done in the past.

Posted by Soupdragon on May 26, 2011 10:09

All dogs on public lands should be with a leash and all dogs without leash should be caught by the local administration (OrBorTor), keep one month in a dog shelter and if nobody come to pick it up, put to death.

Definitely, no dog on beaches at all.

Posted by Whistle-Blower on May 26, 2011 10:35

The Thai people who savagely beat the frightened dog to death should do hard time in the Bangkok Hilton. They are disgusting subhumans.

Posted by Pam on May 26, 2011 11:01

@Whistle-Blower: Agreed, except make it one week before put to sleep.

@Pam: Why don't you go for a walk along Surin beach. Take a pork chop with you.

@Ed: Whoever it was, well done.

Posted by Mike Boyd on May 26, 2011 12:02

I'm shocked... that this 65-year-old guy has a four months old daughter.

Posted by Michael on May 26, 2011 12:15

@ed- you are assuming that pam didn't witness the beating!!
whoever did it are disgusting subhmmans!

Posted by another steve on May 26, 2011 12:28

I have a dog and I love dogs very much. However I understand that some people do not and above all, it is my responsibility to care for my dog.

There should never be a situation where a dog is a nuisance or downright danger to people.

I always walk my dog on a leash, have trained her to heed and to be friendly towards everyone and not even to bark. Yes, you can train a dog to do all that, if you actually care about your dog.

What I don't accept and understand is the vast number of (mostly local) people who not only let their dogs roam free but do so in full knowledge of their aggressive behavior.

I have tried to reason with a few Thais around my house and the reaction is very aggressive and hostile.

None of them has shown the least bit of concern or common sense.

I've spoken to the police (Chalong) who happened to drive by after one of the dogs bit a person here and they just smiled at the owner and told me to forget it.

Soi Dog foundation has done invaluable work in sterilizing stray dogs, which really should be the responsibility of the local government. This has significantly cut down on the numbers of stray dogs which 6-7y ago used to be a real danger, roaming around in the night in Patong and Phuket in packs of up to 40 strong, chasing people on motorbikes and scaring the living daylights of many on foot too.

I really would like to know who is that official who will take action and not just offer lip service.

Dog is a mans best friend but if abused by the owner, they will turn aggressive and be a menace to everyone.

Posted by Chris on May 26, 2011 12:35

Lots of dogs roaming around makes the place look like a ghetto. I will never understand how the officials can say high class resort area and then say let the dogs roam free.

There should be an effective leash law with enforced penalties.

Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2011 14:00

I hope the dogs owner will be paying the hospital bills for Mr Karasek. His daughter could so easily have been killed if the dog had "locked" onto her instead.

The most aggressive, hostile and violent animals on the planet are humans. I couldn't imagine a worse way of dying than being beaten to death.

Posted by AntzPantz on May 26, 2011 14:01

Why on earth is Surin Beach a 5-Star Beach? Because of the lot of tailor shops along the beach or because of the restaurants with staff who are beating the fruit-sellers on the beach? It was a nice one about 5 years ago, but today no more.

But anyway, that is just my opinion and is not related to the dog attack.

Werner, get well soon!

Posted by Fritz Pinguin on May 26, 2011 15:25

It's amazing how Karma works..... Soupdragon, you are absolutely correct.

Posted by Karma is a Killer on May 26, 2011 22:45

Any dog attacking people should be put down. They are a menace, and I'm really tired of dog owners being "shocked" when their dog attacks people just walking on a beach or down a street. The people who killed this dog did society a favor.

Posted by christian on May 27, 2011 11:12

I do think its a shame to know that we have so many blood lust residents living in our community. Happy the child is safe from the dogs, hope she is safe from the residents..

Posted by Anonymous on May 27, 2011 14:45

Dear Editor, it is a shame that this man is being painted as a hero.He is partly to blame for this incident as he owns highly aggressive dogs himself and fails to control them. your article has promoted healthy debate and clearly there is strong divided opinion in the community. Nothing vindicates the savage reprisal metered out to the dog. Mr W if you live by the sword you die by the sword! Happy that your child is safe please take time to reflect on the cause!

Posted by Anonymous on May 27, 2011 15:12

(moderated) Perhaps there is a horrible lesson learned here. There should be a total ban on certain breeds of dog, particularly on this island.

Posted by Anonymous on May 27, 2011 15:14

I have unfortunately seen the worst of both sides of this issue and that means one thing. There isn't a side.

My young cat had it's guts torn out right outside my window by a neighbor's dog in one province.

And in another province, a pit bull dog I loved as a good buddy I'd stick up for no matter what, frequently attacked and bit a neighbor we all hated until the neighbor finally snuck some poison and killed him.

You can't control dogs and you can't control people, you can only protect yourself and those you care for.

That applies to a lot of things in Thailand. Dogs, neighbors, traffic, money, love, land, life.

Posted by JingJing on May 27, 2011 16:42

Dear editor please let me put my name to my comment so there is no confusion. (moderated)

Posted by Angus on May 27, 2011 16:47

It was inevitable that the "simple" solution of blaming the breed of dog would get tossed out here. It seems highly unlikely that this was a pure bred so the lack of logic in the suggestion is more off base than usual.

If against all odds, it were a pure bred the breed of dog is not the issue. Any dog can become vicious, if abused, threatened repeatedly or poorly cared for regardless of breed. I have rescued a couple of dogs from very bad, abusive situations while living here (a Pit Bull, a Bull Terrier and a Doberman). Given a good home, sheltered from abuse, well fed, loved and cared for they have been fantastic family pets among the best I have ever had. They allow children to hit them, ride their backs, pull their tails and never let out a peep. The biggest problem is with moronic strangers who hang over the fence and throw things at them or hit them with sticks (typically Westerners).Despite this they have never bitten anyone or anything since I took them in. In honesty they are hell on cats, not sure that counts though (sarcasm).

I also don't take them for walks without a leash or into areas where I know there are strays, etc. where there could be a problem.

Since the breeds are not the cause of dogs going bad that leaves owners/humans. Owners not taking responsibility and care, people abusing and teasing strays/letting their dogs go after them and not treating the animals with respect. Research shows that it is extremely rare that a dog attacks a human being without some provocation, even those trained to attack will not do so unless provoked or lead to it. It is even rarer, almost non-existent, for an attack to become as vicious as this unless the dog felt greatly threatened. I am not saying that is the case here but it is very, very unlikely and for that reason I have my doubts that this is the complete story.

Unfortunately what is also rare is people taking care of their dogs (including not allowing them to fight and not putting them in situations where problem is likely). It is always easy to pass some freedom limiting law that inhibits people's ability to make their own choices or condemns a breed instead of focusing on the real need of society. That real need is for people (read that each of us) to prove they deserve the freedoms they have by accepting responsibility for their actions, making wise decisions and behaving towards animals and others as they wish to be treated. Unfortunately there is not a strong history of this in the world. If you are going to ban something, ban the bad owners.

Posted by Martin on May 27, 2011 17:58

I support Soupdragon and Anonymous. Our dear editor perhaps should check Mr.werner background. (moderated)
Editor, I am writing this just because I don't want to see the street dogs being hunted by the people who want to take dogs down because they beleive that Mr.werner is a hero in this case. What I believe is mr.werner dog been attack this dog before and the dog can smell his pittbulls from him and his baby. I am sincerely very glad that the BABY is SAFE, because kid doesn't have to take a bad karma from her dad.

Posted by wichai on May 27, 2011 18:06

"Mr Karasek, originally from Austria, arrived on Phuket 27 years ago when it was ''unspoiled and beautiful.'' His wife runs the self-named Pla beachfront restaurant at Surin"

I remember when surin beach was unspoiled and beautiful before Mr Karasek put a 200 metre plastic pier down the middle of it.

Posted by Chicharito on May 27, 2011 21:07

"Editor Comment:

Having been bitten twice on Phuket without provocation, any talk that it is always the person's fault is as silly as suggesting it is always the dog's fault. To say that all breeds are equal and some are not inherently dangerous is to challenge the logic that bred the dogs in the first place."

Wow bit twice through no fault of your own that is pretty bad luck. Lived here nearly twenty years. Walk my dogs every day, run every morning and never bitten. Strange that?

Reading is fundamental editor. Please read what is posted, "rare", I did not say impossible nor did I suggest that I thought it was always the humans fault. To make such an illogical assertion is about as silly as claiming there is statistically supported evidence tying dog attacks to breed.

As an example: "A study performed by the American Veterinary Medical Association, the CDC, and the Humane Society of the United States, analyzed dog bite statistics from the last 20 years and found that the statistics don't show that any breeds are inherently more dangerous than others." A google search will show that this is supported by numerous studies throughout Europe and the US as well as in the position statements regarding Breed of Dog Laws from UN Agencies, etc. If you hold the position that breed is the issue you are sadly mistaken.

Consider the logic of why the dogs were bred in the first place so challenged. Most of the scientific community world wide would agree with me.

Posted by Martin on May 27, 2011 23:04

Dear Editor,

You have my full name. So I stand publicly accountable for these next comments. For the purposes of your forum.

I am a dog owner myself, in fact I have 7 dogs. I believe that everyone should have an equal right to peacefully enjoy Phuket's beaches and public spaces,without fear of intimidation from either humans or animals. Owning the dogs means that I am accountable for the way they behave,and I am duty bound to ensure they are kept under control.This is attained by conditioning the dogs ala Pavlov and if necessary the use of suitable leads,humane choke chains and muzzles.

The issue is one of accountability or rather lack of accountability. Soi dogs conduct a fantastic on going campaign to sterilize "cats and dogs " . This has lead to a reduction in the numbers of feral animals in Phuket. They cannot win this battle if the community as a whole does not support them, by managing their pets. In the case of Surin Beach, my understanding is that land currently occupied by the various restaurants was granted to "local Thai" families on a lease basis so that they could operate business next to Surin Beach. Over time some of these leases have been "Sub let" from the local families. This contributes to the variety and spectacle of Surin Beach. Unfortunately in the real world people are motivated to act by financial gain or through intimidation or combination of both. Accountability for a community rests with a community, and requires a community acceptable solution regulated by a recognized local authority. Would it not be appropriate if the ability to own and operate a business on Surin beach was tied to the commercial interests of all those who operate on the beach. That means that the ability to hold a lease or sub lease is dependent on codes of conduct that include the safe responsible removal of waste food and waste products. These dogs, some of which are strays and some of which are owned all have to eat. Which means if you control the food supply to an extent you can control some of the population. Those dogs owned by the operators should have a resident tag on their collars with the name an number of the owner.This would allow removal of the strays.
The strays also need to be cared for humanely,and there is a cost to this which should be levied on those business operators who use the beach. Surely its in their interests to keep the beach's reputation intact and for it not to become a dangerous place by virtue of an unmanaged dog population?

The dog situation in Surin cannot be viewed in isolation,other factors such as poor refuse disposal enforcement,encroachment onto the beach by operators and a sub culture of violence and intimidation contribute. In the end both the problems and solutions all rest within the community. If nothing is done then unfortunately its the community that will suffer.

In terms of this particular incident,it is lucky that the child was not injured. Last year I was savaged by a Stray dog,losing in the process one of my fingers and having to undergo expensive anti rabies treatment.The actions of this one dog have not translated into a hatred of canines!

The gentleman in question owns his own intimidating dog,and by his own admission knew that there was a history.I have no sympathy for him as he enjoys his own dog's aggression.

Whilst I understand it has raised passions with the non dog loving cohorts, the praise extended by some for the way in which the dog was beaten to death is more of a concern. It is a short drop from extreme inhumane violence directed to a dog to human's and frankly its more of a worry that there are Physcos out their in our community who condone this violence. I would encourage those who praised the violence to seek help !

Perhaps the victim in this case could become the hero and try to galvanize the community into a humane solution, given that his family maintains such a significant presence at Surin Beach.

Posted by Angus Keeling on May 28, 2011 13:33

"The breed of the dog involved in the Surin attack is unclear but the expat said it may have been part pitbull."

It's Mr Werner's dog. check with all restaurant on the beach they know a long story.

Posted by Wichai on May 28, 2011 14:22

I have been chased several times by dogs while driving my motorbike. My wife has been bitten twice while behind me on the motorbike and I had to fight off four dogs in the night by throwing stones.

Two times I saw accidents happen with motorbikes chased by dogs, one involving a mother with a little girl ending up in a ditch still under attack.

If I had the power, there would not be a dog left on the island. Foreigners, wake up! They are not the pats you know from your home country. They are wild animals here, causing mutilation and even death.

Posted by Joe on May 29, 2011 01:03

Joe, it is a shame that you have endured bad experiences with dogs. However your comments and warnings to foreigners to wake up are both ignorant and offensive. If you bothered to look around most of the organizations that are actively trying to tackle the issues are heavily supported by "foreigners" along with their highly respected Thai colleagues. This is a community issue and requires a united community response. The reality is that if the issue is not addressed humanely there will be a back lash in terms of visitors who are the life blood to the economy. If you and the other extremist elements had your way the canine population would be exterminated.Don't you think we have enough challenges without the headlines " Phuket Canine Extermination". I totally respect your right to ride your bike and walk unmolested by dogs on the street. I would encourage you to take a moment to think as to the causes of these populations and how are they supported. The breeding dogs required a gene pool source and then require a food source. All of us have a responsibility to control our pets, but issues of responsible waste disposal add to the overall problem. The cause of theses dog related issues is lack of community responsibility the dog attacks are a symptom. By the way Joe just to make it clear my reference to the community means Thai and foreign nationals. Remember the elements that are meant to separate us as humans from "the wild beasts" is our capacity for compassion and humanity.If don't demonstrate these qualities don't expect to be treated with them.Perhaps you can direct some of your stone throwing energy to contributing to those organizations that are trying to address the problems?

Posted by angus Keeling on May 29, 2011 10:43

Don't take your dogs to the beach leave them at home. When you take your dog to the beach we get dog fights, and people get bitten. I have never seen so many stupid people who don't seem to understand this.

Posted by capt canada on May 29, 2011 13:40

I agree, Pla's ugly blue plastic pier that encroaches halfway up the beach is unsightly. How did they get a permit for it?

Posted by MediaWatcher on May 29, 2011 16:56

Unfortunately Captain Canada,your suggestion is not going to solve the issue. You have missed the point completely, the percentage of dogs owned and walked by the owners is minuscule.Most dog owners like me walk our dogs early in the morning at dawn when its cool,which means we don't generally interfere with the rest of the community.

The problem is with the strays and resident dogs attached to the restaurants. The dog issue has multiple heads. As for your comment about not seeing so many stupid people who don't understand ,surely , It's the pot calling the kettle black!

We will all get bitten by this issue when the tourists stop coming to Surin! But the solution has to be community wide and comprehensive, not reactionary. It also has to be regulated. Media watcher's comments are actually indirectly relevant to the issue as to enforcement and interpretation of the local bylaws. It is apparent that Mr W has significant influence in the area perhaps he can galvanize the community into some humane, sensible action,not vigilante violence that seems to bubble under the surface.

If this is addressed the right way, everyone wins !

Posted by Angus Keeling on May 29, 2011 19:16

To claim that the breed of the dog is unimportant is ridiculous..Sure any dog can become aggressive and ready to bite if its been badly treated by a bad owner. But if that dog happens to be a small poodle, all that is needed is a hard kick and maybe a stomp if it attacks. Try that with a big muscular dog. So the issue is (of course) the POTENTIAL danger of certain breeds. A Shizu going wild is usually not a problem. A doberman or a Rottweiler? Different story..Let dog owners be responsible for whatever injuries their dog cause. That will weed out the "bad" owners in a hurry. A dog bites you? Causes severe injuries? The owner gets a couple of years in jail. The dog kills some one? The owner goes to jail for 20-30 years. All dog lovers still so sure that Fido is so lovely and the most caring creature in the world?

Posted by christian on May 29, 2011 19:47

Brave Christian, its reassuring to know that you could, if required, negate a ferocious Poodle with one kick and a stomp of your huge boots. I also note not to bring my big dogs because they could defend themselves. Seriously Christian, it's a worry that clearly you have actually spent time analyzing the best way to dispatch a marauding poodle (you are a scary person).

As a dog owner I clearly maintain some views which are diametrically opposite to your own,as it would seem from your violent scenarios and your apparent praise for the violent death of the dog in this story, that you really don't like dogs. The difference is that unlike you, I am open to suggestions that could address the problem.
I actually agree with you in relation to your suggestion that some dogs were in fact crossbred for specific purposes. There are traits in dogs, my own Labradors instinctively chase birds in the water their breed were created to retrieve game birds on shoots. Whilst there are traits, any dog will react to its environment and treatment, like people. If we applied your argument to human minors ( under 16 or 18) could we? should we make parents responsible for their children's actions and impose custodial sentencing, of course not, or should we:) ? But we do see cases where parents are brought to book for abuse and neglect of their Children!

There does need to be greater accountability from owners,and perhaps custodial sentences may help for extreme cases. Could I ask would you also be supportive of custodial sentences for instances of animal cruelty or neglect, that in some cases would lead the dog to be deviant or aggressive?

The original story sprung from an incident where by a dog owner was the victim of a vicious attack. By his own admission his own dog had a history of violence with the dog in question. The fact that his own aggressive dog wasn't there at the time had no bearing, there was an association between the dog and the victim and to the dog it was processing its experience when it found an opportunity. If Mr W is honest to himself he has enjoyed his own dogs aggression in the past, only this time he is paying the price. To be fair to him though his family restaurant and the area surrounding it is one of the cleanest areas on the beach, just don't bring your dog.

Everyone has the equal right to enjoy the roads and public spaces unmolested. The only way to achieve a lasting solution is a humane community approach that included better management of the beach side areas, including refuse collection disposal of used food. Greater community support for the organisation that care for the strays with a levy towards this cost, on the people who own the business units that benefit from the proximity to the beach. Because it will also be those business units that suffer if they don't. I think there would be a customer backlash if this issue is not dealt with in a humane manner.

Finally could I ask all the Poodle owners out there to ensure that you keep these ferocious creatures under control.

Posted by Angus Keeling on May 30, 2011 12:39

Angus...

Are you stupid or just pretend to be be? Did I ever say I was going to attack a dog? No. The point was that a small dog attacking me (or anyone) will not be able to cause severe injuries, maim or even kill me. So the size of a dog is OF COURSE extremely important! The potential amount of harm a dog can cause is of course tied to how big and strong it is. To not understand this is just insane. Why should we let people walk around in public with what could in many cases be classified as a weapon? And yes, dogs ARE attacking people totally unprovoked, it happens every day. I see people are being chased by barking mad dogs when they are just passing by on a motorbike all the time.

Another classic is when dog owners say "Don't run or show that you are scared, just stand still and it will be alright"..Somehow making the people just walking down the street minding their own business responsible because they "got scared" and so how can you blame the poor dog? He just got scared too, hu? sO even though you were not threatening the dog, the DOG thought so and so its all your own fault for being bitten.. Excuse me, but it's a HUMAN RIGHT to be scared and want to run if a large dog comes running at you. It DOES NOT give the dog the right to attack me.

Anyway, why is it that just because you love dogs you have some god given right to own a potentially deadly animal? Why do we that don't own dogs need to give you special rights? Some dogs are too large to be allowed in a public area, because they are NEVER under complete control of the owner. I have experienced dogs running towards me or other people countless times, and the owner is yelling for the dog to come back, to no avail.

Posted by christian on May 30, 2011 14:27

And Angus

When you compare human minors with rabid dogs and so on, it really shows that you are extremely biased. And, just so you know, dogs are animals. You know, animals? Like a cow or a pig. Get it?

Posted by christian on May 30, 2011 14:33

Christian, if you bother to read my previous comments, I am actually trying to suggest an approach that understands and addresses the multiple causes of the problem so that there is a compromise and a real lasting solution, because I concede that there is a problem. Your approach so far has looked at a small percentage of the causes and is at best overly simplistic.

I agree that everyone, including you, have the right to enjoy public spaces unmolested by dogs or humans. I too would like to walk my dogs without them or me being attacked by aggressive animals and people.

I admit to the ridicule of your scenario of the Poodle because you were so express in your technique. But lets put that unfortunate and clumsy illustration to one side . For someone who expresses to be such an advocate of human rights, intimating in the process that you are on a higher plain, I find it immoral for you to condone the manner in which the dog involved was dispatched, after the event in cold blood. I agree that a dangerous dog has no place in our community, but to kill it in such a way demonstrates far more worrying undertones in our community. In commenting in the way you did you are inciting more violence by praising this action, which we don't want or need. So my comment to you is that your bravado rhetoric does nothing to help find a solution, it merely pushes the poles of argument further apart making it more difficult to find a solution. In fairness your ideas about custodial sentencing were quite creative, if you try hard maybe you could get another good idea next year!

Dogs aren't going anywhere which means that a solution and compromise must be found.That means that both sides need to meet halfway

As for being stupid, I didn't use a scenario involving a graphic dispatch method for an aggressive poodle, but Christian don't take this the wrong way and throw yourself to the Lions or Poodles for that matter:)

By the way, apparently you have deeply upset the Shizu population as you mentioned that they may not be perceived as a threat:)

.So your bravado, rhetoric and eye for an eye mentality helps no one. and you ask me if I am stupid !

Posted by angus Keeling on May 30, 2011 15:51

Christian,
I was using an analogy, I realize now that such a device is over your head and will try to defer from using such devices in future.The parallel was drawn to illustrate what happens if you take Vicarious liability as a basis for your governing laws.
Your comments about Cow and Pigs are well noted, thank you for your creative example. Perhaps you may need to rest for a few weeks while you recover from that brilliant thought. Personally I don't eat Cows, Pigs or Dogs, but hope you enjoy your Crow. By the way that's an expression, neither a bird nor an animal:)

Posted by Angus Keeling on May 30, 2011 17:23

As far as I can see, the problems come down to this.
This island (and probably the country in general) needs:

1) less strays = more sterilisation of both pets and strays,

2) more responsible dog ownership = dog owners preventing their dogs from roaming freely on the streets and beaches, and not abandoning their dogs in low season, when times get tough, when they move on, or because they just can't be bothered with them anymore,

3) better government services = better garbage collection to prevent scavenging, government dog wardens, improved conditions at the government pound, and HUMANE disposal of unwanted and stray dogs.

4) legislation, enforcement and prosecution, fines, etc against owners of dangerous dogs.

5) new social attitudes which value animal welfare, responsible dog ownership and respect for fellow citizens.
Other cities/countries manage to do this. Why on earth can't Phuket/ Thailand get to grips with its stray/dangerous dog problems?

Posted by Janice on June 2, 2011 12:24

"Misleading Titles of News Stories Scares Away Tourists"

"Dog Attack Man and Baby on Phuket Beach" would be more accurate and less frightening... you make it sounds like the man and baby got gang raped!!!

Posted by Jacob on June 2, 2011 15:24

"Misleading Titles of News Stories Scares Away Tourists"

He has a point. Dog bites man. Wow.

Posted by Jamie on June 3, 2011 00:10

Packs of dogs have been roaming the beaches since 1990, when I first arrived.

Posted by JKJ on June 3, 2011 08:16

These are WILD DOGS and wild dogs form PACKS to hunt and to PROTECT TERRITORY so they will BITE YOU and they could kill you. These dogs need to be taken down. All of them. Quit wasting money trying to spay and neuter wild dogs. Sorry but wild dogs have no place in packs on a beach. And yes I am an animal lover but do not forget that there is a fine line between wild and tame. Watch grizzly man sometime.

Posted by thedogwhisperer on June 3, 2011 16:31

Kill all, and I mean every single one, of the soi dogs that intimidate, growl and attack humans. In Kuta, Bali the situation has gotten out of hand.

It's called pest control.

Dogs shouldn't be allowed roaming around without supervision - in western societies it's against the law for dogs to run free in the streets.

So, good job of getting rid of the aggressive black dog on Surin Beach, now proceed and take care of the rest of the pack.

Posted by Theodor on June 3, 2011 22:05

"So, good job of getting rid of the aggressive black dog on Surin Beach, now proceed and take care of the rest of the pack."

Theodore, I agree totally with you about soi dogs being a pest. But, as you know some people have a rather unhealthy emotional bond with dogs, and they demand that dogs should be treated in a different manner than other animals..The double standard is mind bobbling and IMPOSSIBLE to defend. But these people are fanatics, and so we have well off westerners arriving in Thailand and other developing countries and demand that the locals start treating dogs according to their own twisted beliefs. Just because THEY love dogs. They are "shocked" and "disgusted" that most locals dont care much about dogs. The thing is, to "care" for stray dogs is just not a priority in a country like Thailand, and that is totally understandable. At least to me and other clear thinking people.

Posted by christian on June 5, 2011 21:16

Christian, I had intended not to comment further on this subject, in this forum, on the grounds that I could be accused of cruelty, to a member of the human species, who clearly cannot defend himself intellectually.

You infer in your comment that you are one of the so-called Clear Thinkers, when you can't even use a simple adjective. What exactly is ''mind bobbling''? Or did you actually mean ''mind boggling'', which means intellectually or emotionally overwhelming.

I am not suggesting we apply double standards to dangerous dogs, I agree they have no place in our community and should be destroyed, but humanely. It was you that drew the comparison stating that dogs are animals, in the same group as cows and pigs. Cows and pigs are usually bred to become food sources and are then usually dispatched humanely. I am sure there would be an outcry if you dispatched a pig in the same brutal manner, in which the black dog was killed so publicly, there may be less demand for bacon at our restaurant breakfast tables. ''Babe beaten to death by angry mob''. Or maybe you were thinking about bull fighting? Yes I know this illustration is perhaps a stretch for you, a cow is not a bull but they are for this point both Bovinae.

Yet again you demonstrate your lack of comprehension with your comment about ''locals ''. What exactly are you referring to? Are you inferring in your usual blinkered manner that the term refers only to a person indigenous to Phuket, or Thailand? I am sure there are many foreign born Nationals living in our community who now consider themselves to be ''local''. Participating in legitimate business operations with their Thai partners, contributing to the local community and paying Thai taxes. Surely Mr. Werner at least could be considered to be a local having lived here 27 years.
Oh, and I hate to break it to you, that moral code and ethics are not confined to ''the well off,'' there are people across the social and financial spectrum that maintain standards and ethics. So Mr. Clear thinker, some would say this demonstrates yet again your presumptuous bigoted and bias opinion.

Finally, as to your comment about twisted beliefs, where in any sane society is it deemed acceptable to beat a living creature to death in such as manner and in cold blood? If you think that this is acceptable then I have nothing but pity for you. Were you bullied at school?

Posted by Angus on June 6, 2011 14:54

Angus

yep, I meant Mind Boggling, just a slip thats all. I dont know where you are from, but Im from Sweden, and I guess my english is at least better than your swedish? Im also more or less fluent in Thai now that you care to put so much focus on language skills. And half decent in italian..You are a real keyborad warrior I can see that, and I have pitu for YOU and find it amusing that you think you are on some higher plane and smarter than me. Well, go ahead and think so. You are extremely biased because you love dogs, thats it. Concerning your comment about "killing living beings in public" is ridiculous, that black dog had just endangered a baby's life..Are you also upset about mouse traps? I think the double standards on display is amazing. Either you care for all animals or not, anything else is pure bias. People get upset when dogs or "cute" animals get killed, but "lesser" animals are not so high on the "must save" list. And no, I dont have any problem eating an animal that was killed right in front of me, not at all. Some people do, but I find that ridiculous too. Bring on the reality, I dont mind. Since I work a lot in China I have eaten dog too. Ok, I didnt order it, but it was on the table and so I ate it. Not exactly delicious, but not terrible either.

Posted by christian on June 6, 2011 22:18

Dear Editor,
Thank you for providing this forum for healthy debate!
I am not fighting anyone! This is an exchange of viewpoints! Actually I have reflected on things, and think its a waste of time now to keep on challenging Christian to expand his viewpoint. The great irony is that I agree that dangerous dogs do not have a place in our community,for me its simply the method of dispatch I object to, and the violence i object to.It was wrong of me to comment on Christian's English, I should have focused on my key objection which was my objection to a violent undertone. The article stated that the dog was beaten to death after the attack,which means it was in cold blood, not an act of self defence. Clearly the dog,by its action lost its right to live in the community but should have been put down humanely.There are clearly multiple causes to the aggressive dog problem that are environmental and cultural.
My point is that I do not wish to see violent remedies
become the norm on animal related or human issues.The point is about the method of dispatch it should always be humane !I am consistent I respect all animals,and personally do not eat meat of any kind. However my dogs eat some meat and I hope that the farm animals that become their food are treated humanely in both life and death.
Christian, I do not like mousetraps either I have cats:)

Posted by angus on June 7, 2011 07:49

Angus

I will at least give you, the respect you deserve for putting your money where your mouth is, since you are a vegetarian.

Ok, I can get along with putting down unwanted dogs in a humane fashion. Whatever that means?

Posted by christian on June 7, 2011 10:51

Whereas i certainly believe many dogs are aggressive in protecting territory or are just plain evil like many humans, I also am convinced that there are some humans that dogs somehow instinctively dislike which makes me think they have some psychic "sense" about people....we have a ridge back that was chained up and starving under a village house because it had been biting people...I crawled under and unchained it and lifted him into the back of our truck and brought to our farm....didn't make a murmur. Yes he has bitten certain individuals that have "visited" our farm but others like the guys who cut our grass for their cows, he ignores..what do they know or sense??? Oh yes he has snarled at me a few times but so would I if some guy was sticking a needle in my back.

Posted by David on June 8, 2011 06:06

I came across this whilst considering bringing my dog to phuket.
An Editors job is to Edit inappropriate comments, not to exhibit an inability to resist having a last say with your own personal comments.

Christian the fact that you don't know what putting an animal down humanely means is scary - Surely this isn't indicative of the education/intelligence level? In the majority of the civilised world we left behind the inhumane treatment of animals (yes pigs, cow, humans - all mammalia), and is actually a jailable offence. And the comments that large dogs should be discriminated against for their size is ignorant. Records show small to medium dogs are the most prevalent attackers. Not ability to attack. If so larger humans should also reasonably be considered more able to inflict harm on strangers in passing - so should I carry mace or a gun to protect myself and have defence to use should I feel threatened when a large person walks near me when walking on the beach?

Posted by Sherrie Storer on April 12, 2012 18:29

I can't believe it! Another dog loving Psycho comparing DOGS to people..Dogs are animals, and not people. Get it? If you can't understand that the POTENTIAL damage a dog can cause is very important, then I don't know what to say..Just idiotic. The larger the dog is the more dangerous it will be if/when it attacks. Is that really that hard to understand? If all dogs were small they would be a minor nuisance at most, not a deadly threat. To turn your reasoning another way, if you feel you should have the right to walk around with a potetentially deadly animal in a public space that happens to extremely loyal to YOU, then at least us other people that don't like dogs should at least be able to carry a small gun? Or maybe just a small, easy to wield axe? No? Why not?

Just because you love dogs that shouldn't give you some special rights. And yes, outside of dogloving cirlcles dogs are just like any other animal. Not more not less.

Posted by christian on April 12, 2012 22:43

Hello Christian,
I see the anger management hasn't really helped:)

The point is about humanity,and the human ability to assess things objectively with a morality that is unique to the human species. Most sane people would consider the infliction of pain on another living creature to be immoral and unacceptable. The death sentence imposed on individuals who are deemed to have breached society's boundaries is executed with extreme caution in most countries.In some cases in the USA it has been commuted to life imprisonment when deemed to be cruel and unusual,such is the reverence for life and the humane method of dispatch, even those who are convicted murderers.

What is more alarming to me is that the are people living in our community who are openly talking of carrying weapons for the sole purpose of violence ( even so called self defence). I have not heard of any fatalities caused by dogs recently but have read about many deaths caused by humans, from murder, alcohol related violence, vehicular related deaths, so I ask the question which is the more dangerous species and who is the "Pyscho".

May I wish you a happy and safe Thai New Year and suggest that perhaps you seek a new therapist after the holiday.

Posted by angus keeling on April 13, 2012 09:24

Angus

I'm tired of your patronising tone. Again, you are the one who needs a therapist. Again you are harping on about things like imprisonment and death penalty bla bla. Ansd I actually agree with you on that, but that's a wholly different matter. You know why? Because it's about HUMANS! Why you and other dog lovers want to mix humans and dogs over and over again is just beyond me. Sure you are a vegetarian, but I'd hazard a guess that most dogowners eat meat and so the double standard is so blazingly obvious that you need sunglasses. Now tell me. Why do you want to put the dog in a certain category of animal that should enjoy 'human rights'? There is no logical reason, only emotional. Preparing the way for shocking double standards.

Posted by christian on April 13, 2012 11:13

Martin your statement about breeds is patently untrue.

"As in recent years, Rottweilers were the most commonly reported breed involved in fatal attacks, followed by pit bull-type dogs (Table 1). Together, these two breeds were involved in approximately 60% of human deaths."

Full study here: http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/1979-1998-breeds-dogs-involved-in-fatal-human-attacks-us.pdf

Posted by Mick D on April 13, 2012 11:46

Hope the man gets well soon and good job to the folks who bashed the attacking dog. Dead dogs chase no tales. Ohhhhhhh yeah!!!

Posted by JimJimGrilla on February 23, 2014 15:35

"Hope the man gets well soon "

ED, maybe a follow-up would be a good idea? How is Werner now, almost 2 years after the attack?

Posted by stevenl on February 23, 2014 18:29

-Michael- writes = "I'm shocked... that this 65-year-old guy has a four months old daughter." If it makes you feel better, in my opinion and as far as I know, he was 56 at that time. He is slightly older than me and I am born 1961. He played in the Austrian Basketball Nationsl team in the early 80is, so when 20 up.

Posted by Alfred on April 17, 2015 15:43

-stevenl- wrote "ED, maybe a follow-up would be a good idea? How is Werner now, almost 2 years after the attack?"
I know Werner well (since 1990-first K-Hotel stay) and when I was there the last times, in Februar 2012, May/June 2012 and June 2013, nobody mentioned that incident and Werner seemed fully recovered. It was surely not his own Pit Bull who had attacked him, bit him and was getting killed, -mentiones here from somebody-, as I saw that dog in Surin beach during my visits.

Posted by Alfred on April 17, 2015 15:54