Only Australian PM made an appropriate statement that Russia will pay for it would its proxy involvement in the crash will be confirmed.

Giving that number of perished people is 298 (280+15+3infants) hopefully actions against Russia not only words "we are expressing a great concern" will follow at least by all countries whose citizen were brought down,
MH17 number of victims is by 25% higher than that of MH370.

After Lockerbie crash Libya was claimed to be terrorist state and was pressed to paid billions.
Will Russia be named "terrorist state" , pay compensations and will face other consequences too?
If UN General Assembly would vote Russia as an aggressor state , it would lose voting rights at Security Council.

There is a very little probability that the plane went down for other reason than being shot by rebels. Moreover, it is a third plane that went down in that narrow area during last week, first two shot down by rebels and acknowledged by them.
Other options are technically unviable : mistake by Ukrainian troops, that were located too far from that place; laser attack by US from the space ; Ukrainian military planes intentionally shot MH17 from the air.

Feel very sad for Malaysia too, it is definitely too much in this year.

Posted by Sue on July 18, 2014 12:14

- Sue

You are concluding that apples and tractors are the same because both can be found on a farm.

The Lockerbie crash was a state sanctioned action by Libyan Secret Service agents.

This looks at best (worst) like Russia having given advanced weaponry to untrained civilians who could not tell the difference between an AN-26 turboprop and a B777 which is 4x larger.

Do you seriously think Putin sent his minions to deliberately shoot down this plane ?

Liability, if proven, yes but in no way comparable to the Lockerbie crash.

If you want to draw comparisons, KAL007 would be a much better match but even that is far too early to say at this stage.

All we know is that it was most likely shot down by a missile but we do not know by whom.

Mind you Ukraine has plenty SAM too.

Posted by ThaiMike on July 18, 2014 12:56

When citizens chose to vote into the office terrorist organization like HANAS, they pay consequences.
It is Russian citizens , who with all irregularities at polls, still by majority voted Putin into the office again.
Unless citizens will get feedback on their choice of regime that appeared to be state terrorism , they will never learn.

Shouldn't the Kingdom, acting at least out of solidarity with its ASEAN neighbor Malaysia, urgently change visa-free regime Russian citizens , and apply more extensive visa issuance formalities like US applies to travelers from hot spots(Iran,Afganistan etc.)?
Yes, this would greatly reduce tourist revenue from Russian market , and statistics shows they are really good spenders, against common belief of opposite.
But in place of MH17 there easily could be Thai Airways plane, traveling from Stockholm or Frankfurt to Bangkok.

Now it is a green season, and it is very appropriate tine to underscore such measures.
Then it is very likely that in the absence of Russian mass tourism to Thailand, more Europeans will come and fill the place, and it is obviously a sentiment shared among both Thai public , tourists and expats.

Posted by Sue on July 18, 2014 13:03

@ThaiMike

You do not have understanding of situation AT ALL.

Do not know at which language you getting your news ...

One more time:
- Russian rebels are fighting for (Putin's plan) of keeping/establishing "Great Russian world" of people who share Russian as mother tongue wherever they are, regardless of where these people are and what is their citizenship - by the mean of keeping them attached to Russian language as the only language they use on daily basis - virtually, this all starts and to big extent ends with an issue of the language : Ruusian diasporas habitually in arrogant way reject learning and speaking language of host countries , partly of being lazy, partly because in many exSoviet and other countries there are enough other Russian to be able to survive or live comfortable life speaking just Russian.
Eastern Ukraine , yes, inhabited, by mainly ethnic Russians who refuse to accept Ukrainian as an official language (as it brings too much discomfort for them ), as a consequence they rant Ukraine and Ukrainian state as Untermenschen , not worthy being a state, being dissect of Russian and, ultimately arguing that by essence Ukraine is a part of Russia by its substance , so historical mistake of it being a separate state , should be cured by merging with Russia if not in one state than in very close alliance.

- only ignorant people and naives can think of Donetsk/Lugansk Republic "self- defense forces" as really self-defense forces formed by populus. They are lead by Russian special forces/navy/KGB officers , there are political PRists from Russia as "ministers "; hundreds of kilometers of UA-RU border are unattended by Ukrainian border guards , so that is where huge supplies of arms, other provision and, yes, man force came.
Yes, part of arms has been taken over from surrendered Ukrainian troops - which is no surprise , giving that their pay is less than of cashier in 7-11 here.
And, huge money are needed to run the show - these all came from Russia, who openly declared its interest in a territory .

Yes, economical grievances of local population were exploited, and that acute reaction of Russian speakers to linguistic discomfort, but locals play minor role, merely of abetting terrorists by not objecting their presence, than by active support of agenda with actions. And, these are densely populated areas , masses are kept by separatists as human shield .

- you should look better where are located Ukrainian troops, where MH17 was shot down , check distances at which BUK and S-300 can work with an effect, check where 2 more planes were shot down last week (actually exactly there), check June 29 news that rebels got reinforcement with BUK systems (22,000max height), check that BUK is manufactured in Russia, check report of move ment of BUK in the area of Snizhnoe village yesterday and day before - allegedly from Russian territory.

Rebels are in fact Russian army, fighting against state of Ukraine., there is no doubt about it, only without Russian army decorations.
They are not only "supported" by Russian state, they are directly managed from there by highest level military officials of Russian Federation.
MH17 was reputed and discussed immediately by rebels to a Russian General, who was their immediate supervisor on duty at that moment.

Posted by Sue on July 18, 2014 13:35

Sue let be abbreviate it for you.
A plane was shot down in the Ukraine close to the Russian border occupied by pro Russian troops. Who are supported by locals who do not want to be part of the Ukraine.
At this stage we expect that pro Russian troop fired the SAM.
Once all information and intelligence is assessed, we will probably know the cause and and who caused it.
Until then, any theory is just a SUE (Self Undermining Explosion)

Posted by Manowar on July 18, 2014 14:37

@Ed

Agree..But if innocent on individual acts , and then the innocents elect a terrorist regime, what other option do you have..?
It is common in international affairs to retribute to those voters who in democratic way chose terrorists or alike to run their countries.
Adolf Hitler came yo power in a perfectly democratic way.
Putin more or less did the same.
I didn't tell anything like bombing etc.- just restrict entry to Russuan citizens , making visa approval more thorough, to the standard like US makes check on citizens from troubled countries list, and yes,more burdensome - to give a message to those cituzens-voters too, otherwise they have none.
Shouldn't Thailand , as a neighbor, exhibit solidarity with Malaysia, when its flagship airline plane shot down by Russia proxy-troops, albeit apparently by mistake?

"Democratically elected President of Russian Federation" will lead in Ukraine a 21st century warfare , via proxies,for which hardly any Western country is really prepared, and the West will watch Russia Today news on TV, and will applaud Mr.Putin's efforts on "eliminating fascism and unlawful Ukranian junta"?

The only reasonable voice is that of Australia so far, who said no Mr.Putin at G20 until investigation on MH17 is concluded.
Hope Australia, Europe ,US and other countries affected , will finally join their brains and forces and will finally act on the ground to eliminate that nest of terrorism in the middle of Europe.

Posted by Sue on July 18, 2014 14:52

@Manowar

US has confirmed it was SAM hit.

Here is some map: on the l??ft the Orange Line divides a zone under control of Ukrainian troops from rebels' one, and the Red circle is range of SAM missile range, adjusted for a landing distance

http://postimg.org/image/wo9i2iwdd/

So Red circle is completely on the rebels' side.

It is completely incorrect to assume that local population in a conflict area is playing leading active role there - they have got imposed military rule on them, and they have to obey it whatever they think about it. And suprisingly "rebels" to big part are citizens of Russian Federation, with top commanders being all only RU citizens, and, yes battlefield meat, consists a lot of local poor chaps becoming contractors too:
if one country citizens "rebel" with arms in their hands on a territory of another country, claiming part of former to become a part of latter, I call it "war", not "rebellion".

Posted by Sue on July 18, 2014 16:22

@Manowar

And your naivety about "investigation" is surprising:
WHO will do that investigations , collect forensics etc - those SAME people who put the plane down and now walking around a wreckage as it is shown on TV?
Rebels so far had full of control of the wreckage and removing/moving any part of it at their will? Local population took what they liked too..
Rebels were intent to send black boxes to investigators in Moscow..

Ruissian news outlets within 3hours did what is unimagnibale in civilised world - journos got a pck of passports removed from bodies, and showed pics of victims and their anmes on TV, even before notification next of the kin?

Malaysian PM pledged that no one have access to the site and movdetached from realities on the ground.

It could happen that with this plane again we will never get the truth.

Posted by Sue on July 18, 2014 16:47

- Sue

What an entertaining response from you. I can see your mouth foaming all the way from here.

If anything, you have proven that your comprehension of written English is as poor as your spelling.

You compared the Lockerbie incident with this one and demanded similar international reaction. I disputed your flawed comparison and you rant about everything except the very comment of yours I responded to.

Your responses are full of assumptions and half-truths. Try less emotion and more facts next time.

Though the relevance eludes me, I'm sure I can read news fluently in far more languages than you do.

Funny enough you seem to have copied a typical Thai reaction:

When others do not agree with you, it MUST be because they just don't understand anything.

What a lovely, condescending and patronizing attitude that is.

You obviously have a lot of pent up anger and not much to do.

Posted by ThaiMike on July 18, 2014 18:15

@ThaiMike

Aside of your coaching suggestions and philosophical considerations,which are a bit off-topic:

Lockerbie was state-sponsored terrorism act

MH17 is state sponsored terrorism as well, the only difference that it was not specifically targeted - it was random target - when someone blew him self on a Central Square, he doesn't ask passport and doesn't chose particular traget - the goal ir just terror itself.

There is no any doubt that "rebels" commandment on the ground is a Russian army without decorations, they report to Russian army chiefs, that is proven and commonly known fact.
Arms, especially sophisticated ones, are brought though few hundreds kms of border that is unspurevised by Ukraine bordergurads - that is widely known as well, evidence has been collected, White House, UN SC and other isntitutions refer to this as known fact.
"Rebels" privates yes,to significant part, are contractors some poor local guys, but just food for powder.

SAM BUK has narrow range, and its potential range in relation to a point where MH17 has been shot and crashed is well within rebels' controlled territory. The line of divide between Ukrainain troops and rebels is located too far from the place of accident.
There are intercepted calls which acknowledge that rebels got SAM BUk, that they moved it in Donetsk area on 17th of July and that they were going to use it for its function right away.
There are pics and videos of BUK in possesion of rebels. There is video that shows SAM BUK at rebels territory equipped with just 3 missiles, that is 1 missile off, that has been utilized for MH17.
Rebels have full copntrol of wreck, it is made worthless in terms of collecting forensics, as they moved many parts of it, many part have been removed, and local population - by report of Reuters and NYT - looting bodies and luggage.
And finally rebels again reiterated that they will send black boxes only to Moscow - virtually same people who shot down the plane, now are in control of wrcekage, and dopwn everything to remove evidence of their involvement.
And Russian TV channels just 3 hrs after crush showed pack of passport collected, with full pages with photo and personal data exposed on cameras with names etc. - even before relatives were notified.

Russia in this case is state sponsiring terrorism.

And "rebels" are actually Russian army without decoration that is entertaining innovative way of fighting war against Ukraine - and hardly any country in the West is really preapred to fight such kind of wars.

Hope you don't get news on the subject from Russia Today or Nicaragua news agencies.

Posted by Sue on July 18, 2014 21:16

@ThaiMike @Manowar

Here you, intercepted rebels' call reporting to Russian superior, NYTimes puublished and transcribed:
http://goo.gl/lmZvvx

Any other proofs that Russia is a state sponsoring terrorism?

Posted by Sue on July 18, 2014 21:50

Sue,
Anyone with the smallest interest in foreign affairs knows what has been going on in Russia for the last 100 years. Nothing much has changed except the propaganda. Changes for the better did appear to be occurring 20 years ago but have since declined.
Most people, based on the facts available, can assume what happened with MH17, how and why. Will we ever find the truth and will those responsible for it ever admit fault?. Probably not
There will be sanctions, general condemnation, blame and threats and in a few years it will become another event in history of civil warfare.
Will anything change with the attitude of Russian officials because of this event? No.
Will those involved think they did anything wrong? No, they will believe their actions were justified for a greater cause of a unified Russian.
Will anyone be brought to justice let alone identified and prosecuted? No
Will the Russian people be embarrassed by the event? No, they will believe the action was justified because they are brainwashed to believe that the military controlled government acts in the best interest of Russia.

Unfortunately, there is no action that could be taken by any government that will have any effect on those responsible. There will be a lot of talk to make citizens think that governments are taking some sort of action but this in the end, will look good, not achieve anything and those aboard MH17 will be seen as innocent victims of a power and control hungry conflict.

Posted by Manowar on July 19, 2014 04:49

Sue, you reference to a telephone conversation was known within 4 hours of the event and it's probably correct.
So tell me, we can assume we know, what do we did with it? Is it going to change the situation?. What sort of redress do you want? Admission, compensation, an apology,, sanctions, revenge, maybe a war?
How is this going to change the situation or help those effected?
It is an unfortunate event that occurred, should not have occurred and if history provides us with a view into the future, will happen sometime again.

Posted by Manowar on July 19, 2014 05:01

- Sue

Your deeply rooted hatred for Russia is seriously clouding your judgment.

You draw unsubstantiated conclusions from published, inconclusive information.

The US said they could see a radar image which appeared to be a missile following the plane shortly before it disappeared from the radar.

They did NOT say the plane was brought down by a missile like you claim. This can only be confirmed by forensic evidence from studying the wreckage.

Furthermore they specifically said they CANNOT pinpoint the location where the missile was launched from.

The published phone call transcripts are paraded by a party that is also being suspected of involvement in the crash. Until such information can be verified, it is NOT evidence.

Your more ridiculous claims include

"Adolf Hitler came yo power in a perfectly democratic way"

"There is no any doubt that "rebels" commandment on the ground is a Russian army without decorations"

"Rebels are in fact Russian army, there is no doubt about it"

Just because you say so does not make it so.

Heaven forbid prejudicial people who act on assumptions instead of verified facts like you do should ever be given a position of power in this world.

We would definitely have WW3 at our hands.

Through all your rambling and smokescreen antics you have yet to respond to the single contention point I had in my initial response.

Your comparison with the Lockerbie crash.

It was a well planned and executed mission set in motion by the Libyan government with the full INTENT and GOAL to bring down a civilian airliner.

Unless Putin deliberately planned and fully intended to shoot down a civilian airliner, your comparison is just plain wrong.

Naturally you know this because you fail to respond to it but then again it is painfully obvious to everyone that seeing things from a perspective other than yours and admitting being wrong is definitely not your strength.

FYI I'm not Russian but rather a citizen of a country that would historically have plenty of reasons to be hostile and suspicious towards Russia but unlike you, I wait for evidence and stick with the facts.

Posted by ThaiMike on July 19, 2014 09:04