Death penalty is problematic in my opinion not or not only because it's nature , but because of two other problematic fundamental aspects:

1. whether an investigation has been carried thoroughly to ascertain a guilt of accused : even if in the USA there are numerous , very grave mistakes in conviction, then in S.E.A. hardly anyone holds any illusion about the rule of law ..
2. even more important: executing low level soldiers of crime - those people who just did the actual crime, silence them forever and prevents identifying organize, perpetrators, abettors of the crime - which usually in regard of drugs is an organized crime, done by criminal organization, often quite a large . So just one small part is removed , but the organization then continue to exist and flourish. It goes strongly against preventive character of punishment, as execution of low level couriers only appease such criminal organizations to continue and actually shields bosses and middle managements of it from punishment. Given the (1) - lack of rule of law, it only resonates with (1), and lack of proper investigation coupled with execution of couriers only makes bosses of drug cartel only happier.
Fair policy makers should have understand it, it is ABC of state crime policies and its goals.

Finally, it is Australia that voluntarily transmitted evidence and engaged in "a cooperation in criminal matters" with Indonesia in regard of drug crimes of its own subjects, and these crimes , as now is known, originated in Australia, but still Australia agencies chosen to report their source to Indonesia , well knowing what will or highly likely can happen in the end.
In Europe crime suspects are not extradited if they face or could face a death penalty in the country of destination. I think the same applies to Australia.

What about actions that are tantamount to extradition , like in this case reporting its own subjects (but could be curses of other countries) to a country that systematically invoke death penalty punishment ?
The left hand of Australian government doesn't know what the right hand is doing?
If these people would be arrested in Australia on the same charge, and Indonesia would request their extradition , for sure, they would not be extradited.
Why then to report them, but not arrest them at earlier stage of the crime - if the Auatralian giver mint is sincere about its policy of not using a death penalty? Otherwise these are crocodile tears for now by the Australian government .

Of course, in terms of procedure and applicable controls, an extradition is public and happens in a court, so safeguards quality is much higher than that of obscure investigation process , that is by its own nature is confidential and no real public control what crime enforcement officers are doing and much smaller - but here looks non existing - framework how they applied Human rights in line with an official position of the state in regard of a death penalties, as normally , to be consequential , like refusal of extradition, cooperation in criminal matters that could lead to a death penalty fine , should not have happen. But in practical life it is probably not easy alway to identify it timely . And also the general effect of hampering international cooperation in criminal matters is need to be taken into account .
It is good time for Australian government to make its position in regard of such cooperation in criminal matters refreshed and inform about it both public and other governments.

Posted by Sue on April 29, 2015 09:19

@ Sue, compliment for your review.
However, practically speaking, Countries who are against death penalty for drugs syndicate smugglers should warn their citizens in advance about countries who execute criminals, Not only Indonesia, but also Malaysia, Singapore, China. And don't forget many USA States with lots of people on death row, and USA Governors there most of the time not prevent execution ( They have that power).
If you fly to Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, you have to fill out arrival card. In red is a warning about death penalty for drugs.
Perhaps Australia can do more to warn it citizens prior take off from a Australian airport for destination to above mentioned countries? Prevention/warning can prevent 'countries disappointment' regarding executions of their country men overseas.

Posted by Kurt on April 29, 2015 10:22

Sue,
An over simplistic view of events that occurred.
These men were not first timers or pawns for large syndicates. The two executed yesterday were the organisers, the controllers of drug importation business. These two recruited others as drug mules. At the time of arrest, they had other mules operating for them who were also under investigation.
The AFP had to act at that time so as to conduct a coordinated arrest of people in a few countries. Many innocent and naive teenagers have been caught up by becoming mules and are presently serving jail time.
The AFP were initially tipped off by the parent of one mule and this provided a link to many other drug import investigations.
The two men executed had been engaged in the importation of drugs many times and their luck ran out.
While in jail, Chan sent threatening letters to their other arrested mules advising not to provide details of their involvement.

The two executed, stated they were not in control of these syndicates but failed to provide any details.

According to the AFP, other arrests were made but the executed two were syndicate ringleaders and not just minor players.

Posted by Manowar on April 29, 2015 10:46

Manowar,

thanks for updating.

My point was that Australian policies shoukd be coherent :

if Australia pursue policy against a death policy then it should be not only mouthpiece of Foreign Office but although structure under Minstry of Interior (what it is in Australia), that chose tactics of exchange of information on criminal matters with countries that practices death penalty.
There surely was contribution of Australian agency, so they obviously have to manouvre well to balance out opposition to a death penalty as such and cooperation with other countries with a ultimate goals of prosecution of crimes.
It is not easy task, but Australia now have redefine its policies on regard of such cooperation with states that allows death penalty - otherwise Foreign office for my ears sounds increasingly hypocritical.
I don't have answer where these policies shoukd exactly stand, but Australia had to make a choice , and make it public as this concern international agreements.

Posted by Sue on April 29, 2015 17:29

Life in prison without parole is far greater punishment than the death penalty. I speak as a former law enforcement officer having spent several weeks in prison as an undercover capacity. Trust me, three meals per day, a bit of TV, and some exercise and lots of time to read are not worth it. Don't drop the soap
in the shower, the everyday endless
stench, and loss of precious human
freedom - believe me a quick death is far better.

Posted by Anonymous on April 29, 2015 19:42

Sue,
Many issues end up with the same answer of when outside the border of your own country you have to respect local law or customs.
Many countries have certain laws that others disagree with and in the present case many people considered a pardon or appeal would eventually be successful in saving these two guys. The Bali 9 situation has gone on for 10 years, due to the many appeals and some have received favourable decisions with sentencing and others not.
The problem for these guys, as I see it, was the Corby case where she had her sentence continually reduced and the Indonesian people saw that as a government going soft. The interference by the Aus government and lawyers acting on her behalf, fabricating various stories and conspiricies against Indo agencies probably sealed the fate of these guys.
The same was tried again at the 11th hour with the suggestion that a bribe was requested by judges to obtain a reduced sentence. Whether this is true or not, it was never going to result in a stay of execution as there was never an issue of innocence, only one of the sentence imposed.
Also remember, that their death sentence was appealed and reduced to jail only to be appealed by the prosecutor who was successful in having the death sentence reinstated.
Most countries have harsh laws against drug smuggling and enforcement requires exchange of information but not selective when it suits one country.

I think we would all agree on the Indonesia government's hyprocracy in requesting the Saudi govt not execute the 2 Indo maids while at the same time planning the execution of these 9. It is hard to understand any consistency in this request.

The Indonesian govt has been at the centre of numerous media, political and online campaigns to change their decision. I wonder whether these had a positive or negative affect on this case and whether this barrage made them more determined to end it. In a few months it will just be an event in history.

Despite what many people say, the Australian government appeared to try harder than ever before to save these guys from death. Some of the rubbish circulated by social media where prominent actors suggested the PM should get some balls, get to Indo and bring these guys home was a disgusting attack on the very people who for years have tried every avenue right until the very end. It was embarrassing how they carried on, and of course like many campaigns, there were no ideas, no solutions, just all talk that someone else should do the work.

The issue of the death penalty will now fade away until the next person is sentenced but this is the time when agreements between countries should be negotiated. Not when a person is facing his sentence and all the extreme irrationals start up their campaigns.

It is a sad end for those involved and I suppose all of us thought an appeal and lessor sentence may eventually be handed down or negotiated by both governments.

Publicity may well have brought the issue to our attention but the excess of it, may have contributed to the desire to remove the issue once and for all.

Posted by Manowar on April 29, 2015 19:59