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Russians Accused of Monopolising Phuket Tourists
By Sert Tongdee Monday, December 20, 2010
THAIS who work as Russian guides staged a protest in Karon today before moving to Provincial Hall for talks with Phuket Governor Tri Augkaradacha.
It is believed the protest was over what local guides said was preference being shown for guides from Russia, despite the capacity of Thai guides to speak Russian and to reveal more about local culture and attractions.
Accusations were being made that money was being paid to give Russian guides preference over Thai guides.
Governor Tri is known to support the policy of his predesessor, who told all groups proposing to demonstrate in the streets on Phuket to come to see him at Phuket's administrative HQ at Provincial Hall in Phuket City instead.
Russian visitors have risen dramatically this year, with figures revealing 83,000 have come to Phuket in the first nine months of 2010 - a jump of 157 percent.
The Russians mostly travel in package tour groups and the Russian agents involved in the process have now even begun managing Phuket hotels. Police are investigating a blast that killed two people and injured four to the east of Phuket City. It is believed that a man pulled the pin of a hand grenade while drinking.
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Comments
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Brings tears to my eyes seeing those poor Thais not being able to rush the Russians off to the jewellery store and get 30% commission
Posted by
Lord Jim
on
December 20, 2010 15:53
What are they whining about ? Customers are free to choose the product they prefer. If the Russian guides do a better job, then improve your performance, don't run crying to the authorities.
It's a free market economy.. oops, no it isn't.
Foreigners are not allowed to work as tour guides in Thailand.
I wonder why that rule exists ?
Joking aside. As long as the law says guides have to be Thai nationals, the law should be adhered to.
Tour agencies should argue their case of customer satisfaction issues when working with Thai guides with the authorities in charge and not resort to illegal action.
Not that long ago the same issue was with Korean guides.
Since it is so common to see this law breached, it's obvious the Thai guides are not able to provide sufficient level of service.
If tourists shy away from Phuket because they feel uncomfortable with their Thai guides, then everyone loses.
Posted by
Chris
on
December 20, 2010 16:33
Here we go again.. Same as the whine in the jetski article on Phuketwan.. Foreign dive companies make so much money and what do we poor Thais get ?? What do they think is happening that these dive companies are sending the cash out to swiss bank accounts ?? Free market economics, get used to it, compete (They already have the ability to run on far lower overheads), operate on the already uneven playing field they have.
Instead its blockages, cartels, and a divine right to the money no matter what the customer might want.
Posted by
LivinLOS
on
December 20, 2010 19:56
Editor Comment:
Package tourism and the diving industry have only one point in common, and that is there are some people in both who prefer not to employ Thais.
This is an exact replay of a protest against Koreans wanting Korean guides, a few years back. Frankly, the Thai wannabees just DO NOT HAVE THE LANGUAGE SKILLS to do these jobs; they should not pretend to have enough competence in Russian (or Korean). Yes, it's a job; yes, it's in Thailand, but let's be realistic: Language competency sufficient to be a tour guide is almost as much hard prep work as a Ph.D., unless you were born into a family that speaks that language.
Let's ignore the whininess over this issue, as we should also be ignoring the whininess of tuktuk drivers who complain that "local" workers are losing fares to hotel buses, ground option companies' shuttles, and so on.
This sort of unrealistic desire to inappropriately dominate some tourism-related job markets is a tourism killer, and frankly silly to hear coming out of the mouths of Thai adults.
Posted by
Tired of the act
on
December 20, 2010 21:15
Editor Comment:
It's odd how some Thais can speak excellent English and yet you say even those who have trained for years in Moscow cannot speak Russian. Do you really think that Russians come to Thailand to listen to what other Russians think about the country? (PS: I am not a Thai adult. Please deal with the issue and forget the childish put-downs. I'd call that ''whininess.'')
(This may seem a bit off-topic at first but it is in essence the same issue as in the report above, just from another industry.)
Actually most dive companies would love to hire Thai Dive Masters if they could find them. Not only are they a great help in communicating with the boat crew (which has, by law, to be Thai only) but they also work for Bt 15.000.
Thai law stipulates that the minimum salary for an European is Bt 35.000. Should you have a Japanese DM, minimum is Bt 70.000.
On top of that for every foreigner a company hires, they must have a capital of Bt 2m and need to hire 4 Thais, needed or not. This is the precondition for being eligible for a work permit.
Do I smell discrimination ?
Despite this obstacle course laid out to foreign dive operators, Thais are still not able to compete.
Is that the fault of the foreign dive operators ? Apparently yes because they are being made to pay and to take the blame.
How far is Thailand willing to go in putting foreign companies at a disadvantage before they start to realise they need to improve their own performance and be COMPETITIVE.
Judging from the latest interviews here, more discrimination against foreign businesses and foreigners in general is in the pipeline.
I'd love to see the Phuket tourism industry run without any foreigners involved.
The fact is that Phuket needs foreigners working in the industry and Thais know very well they have no chance in running it themselves. They hate this fact. This creates a feeling of inferiority and is the root cause for blatant discrimination.
Nobody wants to admit they are not as good as someone else, let alone Thais who can go to extreme lengths to "protect" their pride.
Since they can't compete in the business, they will resort to the one undeniable advantage they'll always have.
Setting laws and rules biased against foreigners.
Depending on how you look at this, you may think it's the right and perhaps even duty of every nation to protect it's business interests at any cost, or you may side with me and see it as blatant discrimination.
Most developed nations have strict laws against such biased treatment. Thai law is quite the opposite.
Posted by
Chris
on
December 20, 2010 23:14
Editor Comment:
You lost me when you started talking about ''they.'' And there I was thinking that Thailand was filled with individuals, just like every other country. It's certainly discriminatory - and inclined to inflame more blame-filled rhetoric - to not be precise, and to constantly blame ''them.'' If you can't be more specific, then you don't have a point worth making. Readers also don't need Ph Ds to realise that direct comparisons between the comfort zones of developed countries and the needs of developing countries are laughable. We've done the interviews, and we don't sense ''more discrimination in the pipeline.'' We asked some questions, and got some answers. That's it. No need for your promotion of paranoia, Chris. If anything, it's a sign of greater transparency and a willingness to look at other points of view. The fact there are so few Thai dive masters may have something to do with the high cost of training. If it was non-discriminatory, surely there would be courses at fees Thais could afford?
I have no knowledge of the Russian tour guides. However in all of my years vacationing in Thailand, I've yet to run across a tour guide fluent in English. There have been a few that were close, but most have been near impossible to understand and unable to understand even simple questions.
Posted by
Just SomeGuy
on
December 21, 2010 05:02
"Package tourism and the diving industry have only one point in common, and that is there are some people in both who prefer not to employ Thais."
Consider for a second why that is ?? Why would someone pay 4 or 5 times as much, and have a massive paperwork nightmare, if the service was equal ?? The very fact that companies have to spend such large amounts is the marketplace saying they are not.
Posted by
LivinLOS
on
December 21, 2010 07:26
Editor Comment:
Low-cost compulsory training of Thais in both industries, then, should solve both problems, and deliver reduced costs as a long-term benefit.
"The fact there are so few Thai dive masters may have something to do with the high cost of training. If it was non-discriminatory, surely there would be courses at fees Thais could afford?" The 'fact' is that there have been programs set up that Thais can receive the training for free, and still there is a gross shortage.
Posted by
Jon
on
December 21, 2010 08:41
Editor Comment:
How many training positions are open for Thais under these programs? Where are they on Phuket?
I'm no longer in the dive industry but maybe we could hear from someone that is. The government program was a few years back. Also assuming that 'Thais' cannot afford a divemaster program is the same stereotyping that we should avoid as well.
Posted by
Jon
on
December 21, 2010 09:11
Editor Comment:
There's a difference between stereotyping, which usually concerns judgements about character, and generalisations based on statistics. It would be nonsense to suggest the average Thai can afford a diving course as readily as the average expat. You are twisting the principle (no stereotyping) to support your point of view. Why did the government program fail?
Alan, I agree you do have a point.
When I referred to Thais as "they", I did it instead of naming individuals. I could do so but you would never print it for obvious reasons (I would not print it either for the same reasons).
Perhaps I should have used the term "certain Thai individuals" instead of "they". I'll do this in the future.
Can we agree on this ?
That said, it's obvious that though you have an indepth knowledge of a lot of things in and around Phuket and the world in general, the dive industry is not one of them.
Interestingly enough you are suggesting a pricing system, that charges everyone the same, is discriminatory.
That's a first.
Furthermore the courses run in Thai language are usually run by Thai owned businesses. Are foreigners also to blame when Thais charge Thais same fees as they would charge foreigners?
i.e. the same logic as applied in accidents between Thais and foreigners when the foreigner is blamed because "if you were not here in my country, this accident would not have happened"
Adding to that, as someone on the other dive industry related discussion already mentioned, there was a program under which the dive shops offered free DM training to Thais. Government picked up the tab for accommodation and applicants poured into Phuket.
That year out of 50 students only 3 passed the course. The rest quit and enjoyed the free holiday in Phuket. They showed very little or no interest in the courses, coming in late or not coming at all and having done no homework.
The shop I used to work for was one of those participating in this free training program, just to clarify the source of my information.
Thai government recognized this and pulled the plug. That's why the program failed.
If you want to dig deeper, just go and interview the owners of those dive shops that participated in this program.
Posted by
Chris
on
December 21, 2010 10:56
Editor Comment:
My knowledge of the dive industry is certainly limited, and there are plenty of other large gaps. But we did talk to a group of Thai divers who were being trained in Khao Lak and the rest of the industry was seen as being less than supportive. To be fair, any pricing system should charge according to means (ie, a rich person pays 10 times what a poor person pays.) But that's too idealistic. To me, affirmative action is the only acceptable form of discrimination.
Foreigner needs visas, work permits, high minimum salaries, taxes paid etc. Thai nationals don't need all these expensive stuff. Everything else alike, who would the companies employ?
Posted by
Hotel owner in Patong
on
December 21, 2010 12:22
Your idea of rich paying 10x more is not too idealistic. Curiously enough it is alive and well right here in Thailand.
The entrance fee to Mu Koh Similan national park is Bt 400 for foreigners but only bt 40 for Thais.
This applies to all National Parks in Thailand.
I guess your prayers have been answered.
I have to say I very much disagree with you on this though.
I am assumed to be rich because I'm a foreigner. However I work here and earn Thai level salary. I earn more than a factory worker but less than a Thai junior manager. Many expats are in the same situation with me.
When I went to Phi-Phi with my Thai friend, I had to pay twice the fare, even when I argued in fluent Thai that I live here and earn Thai level salaries.
She paid Bt 150, I paid 300. Do you honestly think I should have paid Bt 1500 ?
Would you willingly pay 10x more than Thais for everything here ?
I reconize you said "rich", not "foreigner" but in Thailand those words are synonymous.
Posted by
Chris
on
December 21, 2010 13:00
Editor Comment:
Indeed. That's why I made the distinction. But ideally, people would pay according to their means (not necessarily 10x but an accurate proportion based on their net worth.) Double-pricing is a rough form of means-testing and I told you my preference.
If you are worth in monetary terms twice as much as your Thai friend (or perhaps several times more), then on my scale, you're ahead of the game.
Whether I pray or not has no relevance.
I had a Russian guest stay recently at my hotel. Although his knowledge of Thai was zero, and his knowledge of English almost zero, he explained that he was now working in a Phuket upmarket hotel as a 'liaison' officer (read 'guide') for the hotel's Russian guests.
Considering his apparent lack of linguistic skills - other than Russian, why would the hotel wish to employ him over a local Thai? There must be a good reason.
Posted by
Simon Luttrell
on
December 21, 2010 18:28
Considering how established tourism is in Thailand and all the language schools, there are very few Thai's in Phuket who have come anywhere close to mastering English - sure many can get there point across effectively but it's not accurate. Therefore, I cannot believe that Thai's can master an even more challenging language like Russian.
Posted by
surfer
on
December 22, 2010 09:21
Editor Comment:
Many Thais on Phuket have mastered English, but those who do usually gravitate quickly to five-star resorts and better jobs. It's a matter of aptitude, nothing to do with nationality. To imply that it is about nationality is to stereotype. Some people are capable of mastering other languages relatively quickly and expertly. Others are not. Thais with aptitude have no more problems than others with English, or Russian. Does the Russian language have tones? If not, what makes it so difficult?
@ Simon Luttrell
Perhaps the Russian guests prefer a native Russian speaking "liaision officer" ?
I doubt the Russian guests will want to communicate with him in neither Thai nor English.
You don't think the preference of their customers is a good enough reason for the Hotel to employ Russians ?
Businesses should be free to employ the people their customers prefer, but they are not.
Posted by
Chris
on
December 22, 2010 10:31
Editor Comment:
''Businesses should be free to employ the people their customers prefer, but they are not.''
Sure they are. Most people on holidays prefer to relate to the citizens of that particular country, whether they're in Thailand, US, Sweden, Indonesia etc. Quality of training is a separate issue.
IF the guests in a Hotel prefer their guides to be of their own nationality, the Hotel is NOT free to accommodate that.
We all know Thai law states that tour guides can only be Thai nationals.
You say "Most people on holidays prefer to relate to the citizens of that particular country"
Do you know for a fact that tourists visiting Thailand prefer their guides to be Thai ?
I'd like to see that study.
It has been established that hiring a foreigner as a guide is not only illegal and costs far more to employ but also incurs a lot of paperwork and additional requirements if done under the guise of a proxy position (liaison officer etc)
From a business perspective it seems to make no sense whatsoever to hire foreigners, but yet a lot do.
Why is it not reasonable to at least explore the possibility of tourists actually preferring a guide that can relate to them fluently in their native language ?
I'm sure the fact that a guide cannot understand what his/her customers are asking/saying will be very high on the list of complaints.
I have no doubt that if Thai guides are able to provide satisfactory service to their customers, businessess would be more than happy to hire them en masse.
Having said all that - as long as the Thai law says foreigners can't work as guides, they should not be hired to do illegal work.
Breaking the law is not acceptable. Businesses should advocate open discussion on the subject with those vested with powers to decide on these matters.
This article and the discussion that has followed is a good start. It would be great if we could have more input from Thais though but it's not easy to accomplish by means other than interviews.
Posted by
Chris
on
December 22, 2010 11:13
Editor Comment:
I don't need a study to tell me that people prefer to be guided in a destination or a culture by those who live in that destination or are part of the culture. The ''package tourism business'' needs to recognise that fact and act accordingly. If more language training is required, then let's see the tour companies providing it. In this regard, Thailand is no different to any other destination.
Foreign tour guides certainly live at their destination. That has nothing to do with their nationality.
It can be argued as to what extent they are part of the local culture but certainly not at the level of natives.
A guide must have a sufficient command of local information and must be able to efficiently share and communicate this with his/her customers
Why should foreign tour companies be responsible for training Thai citizens to do a job that Thai law stipulates only Thais can do ?
Incidentally this is exactly what the Korean tour companies did but then the authorities refused the Koreans to have their own representative to administer the following language skill test.
Why would an employer be denied the opportunity to test the skills of the very people he wishes to employ ?
Companies are forced by means not limited to the law to hire Thai guides, regardless of if they are capable to do the job satisfactory or not.
This is why the practise of illegally hiring foreign tour guides persists.
In my books this is not right. Others may disagree.
In many countries employers must give preference to their own nationals and only if there are not enough qualified applicants to fill the position, can they hire foreigners.
This model should bring a solution to the tour guide problem in Thailand but the employer must have a say in deciding who is qualified and who is not.
After all he is the one who both pays the salary and the potential loss of business caused by unqualified staff.
Posted by
Chris
on
December 22, 2010 12:02
Editor Comment:
Is there evidence that the Russian tour companies have tried to hire Thai guides? We've heard they have always used their own guides with few exceptions, where ''sitting guides'' are carried to uphold the law. Better to spend the money on training locals. Otherwise it could be misread as xenophobia.
I know of no evidence showing either Russian tour companies having or not having attempted to hire Thai guides.
I'm sure you know more about this than I do but there is indisputable evidence that Korean tour companies both hired and participated in training Thai guides.
This was widely reported on Phuket at the time, as was the dispute that left the issue unresolved.
I also know that a surprising number of Thais are quite proficient in Russian because of the visa exemption agreement with Russia and Thailand.
Thais can, and many do travel to Russia and consequently pick up both an interest in and actual Russian language skills.
It should be further investigated if Russian tour companies have attempted to hire Thais. If not, then they have no excuse.
Equally it should not be forgotten that companies must not be forced to hire unqualified staff.
If the law leaves no other choice, then in the interest of everyone, it should be changed.
Poor service to tourists is counter-productive to everyone in tourism industry on Phuket, regardless of nationality.
What happened to Goa may very well happen to Phuket too.
Locals at every tourist destination must come to terms with the fact that they can't reap every last penny out of tourism just for themselves. Foreigners are indispensible and they must be given their fair share of profits, too.
The lack of comprehension of the bigger picture in the minds of many Thai individuals does not help either.
They cry foul when tourists choose foreign dive operators but fail to appreciate that without them many of those tourists would not come to Phuket at all.
Many fail to recognise the secondary spending of every tourist. They sleep, eat, drink and shop just like others do.
Let them choose who they dive with or who they prefer to be their guide.
Posted by
Chris
on
December 22, 2010 13:41
In more than ten years I have NEVER heard about one foreigner, who sends his/hers money back their home country, all income is always spent here - so what is the problem?
All companies are by law owned of a Thai majority, a few foreigners do the jobs, that no locals can do - is that really so terrible?
Posted by
Hotel owner in Patong
on
December 22, 2010 19:43
Editor Comment:
The package tours industry is structured differently to general tourism. Package tour operators sometimes can do deals that allow a company based in X to provide flights, accommodation and all-in services in Y with maximum returns going back to X. The high-volume market works on the basis of restricted choice. If you have never dealt with a high-volume tour operator, you may not have seen this outcome. The more profit margins down the line are squeezed, the more money from country Y goes back to country X. As markets mature, more people tend to opt to travel independently. Package tours are not necessarily a recipe for greater prosperity.
Sorry but I don't understand all of this. For instance, how can a company based in an other country provide accommodation in Thailand?
Posted by
Hotel owner in Patong
on
December 22, 2010 20:46
Editor Comment:
If a tourist flies on an airline that has an association with a tour company that offers reduced fares plus discounts at a resort and also provides meals and tours, the tourist pays for the package in one country and doesn't need to spend any extra in the destination country. That's how a boom in package tourism produces increased numbers through the local airport, but less revenue distributed among local businesses.
Editor Comment:
''If a tourist flies on an airline that has an association with a tour company that offers reduced fares plus discounts at a resort and also provides meals and tours, the tourist pays for the package in one country and doesn't need to spend any extra in the destination country. That's how a boom in package tourism produces increased numbers through the local airport, but less revenue distributed among local businesses.''
Many years ago, Kenya made compulsory to overseas tour-operators not to include all-in-one package in order that local people were able to grab some businesses to feed their families.
Today we may say that large oversea tour-operators grab all profit and slave local people to petty jobs in the tourism industry in Thailand.
TAT should rethink the way they deal with those soak-blooders otherwise many of us will go penniless and bankrupt in the coming months.
Posted by
Whistle-Blower
on
December 22, 2010 21:51
Editor Comment:
The TAT is a marketing organisation with no say in commercial arrangements.
@Editor Comment:
The TAT is a marketing organisation with no say in commercial arrangements.
I do not think so. TAT has alltime meddle in all-in-one package tour by organizing cheap package tours with the help of airlines (Thai Airways or discounted airlines), larges hotel chains and tour-operators to bring up the number of tourists travelling in Thailand without regarding the quality ones.
They goal is to increase the % of tourists, then they blame local people if they do not make money. And that strategy is since 20 years.
Posted by
Whistle-Blower
on
December 23, 2010 09:24
Editor Comment:
Whistle-Blower, Best tell it to the local director of the TAT. When we talked to her recently, she said the TAT had two roles: marketing, and creating new ideas to bring tourists to Phuket (like the recent street show festival).
The TAT certainly runs road shows. It has no involvement in commercial arrangements.
The reason for that some big Thai resorts and tour operators can be pressed to discount their products to the limit, is perhaps that there are too many of them.
And this makes small local business suffer, but why blame a few foreign workers for that?
New resorts are built all the time - everybody knows that there is to many already.
Hunt the head, not the tail!
Posted by
Hotel owner in Patong
on
December 23, 2010 13:34
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What did TAT expect, Russians bring everything with them.
Posted by Anonymous on December 20, 2010 15:00