Patong should just be shut down for 5 or so years, leveled, and rebuilt...a humorous thought of course but realistically,with all that has been allowed and done by the previous administration...what solutions are there?

Posted by sky on August 25, 2014 16:16

Only the dates change when Patong floods. As the words of the song say, whatcha gonna do about it? Answer, er nothing we will chat and close our eyes, then no see probrem ka.

Posted by Duncan B on August 25, 2014 16:24

What will happen, when the real rain season comes a couple of months from now?

Posted by Sherlock on August 25, 2014 16:45

Couple of months "Sherlock"?

Posted by Anonymous on August 25, 2014 18:10

Looking at these pictures, I can't believe I'm living on the same Island. not a drop of rain here in Rawai since days. Our gardeners were actually watering the garden today.

Posted by Hajo on August 25, 2014 18:37

#Sherlock Quote "What will happen, when the real rain season comes a couple of months from now?"

Officially this is the rainy season - June to October, that's why Patong looks like an outdoor swimming pool already .

Perhaps you can explain what your version of 'real' rainy season means ?

Posted by reader on August 25, 2014 18:40

Unfortunately Khun Chalermlak has inherited a nightmare and we all know who was responsible. At lest we have a pretty dolphin statue as a legacy.

Posted by Mister Ree on August 25, 2014 19:07

@Hajo

Rawaii/Chalong is notoriously most corrupted part of the island, so even rain has been racketed off by corruption-doers..

Posted by Sue on August 25, 2014 19:19

Out on the Beach Rd today to pick up supplies. A bit slow in knee deep water so thought would walk around the Beach itself to miss the water. Found a rather large hole with a car in it. The locals told me it happens every year, they just tip some more sand in and off they go again. looking at the slab of the road that collapsed there is no real reinforcement or support. Most beach side towns have large drain/culverts that disburse the water to the beach. Not cheap but really needed if Phuket wants to be a leading tourist location. Points though to all the people that jumped in and dug and pushed to get that 4 wheel drive out.

Posted by Davemc60 on August 25, 2014 20:46

I mean that the average rainfall in the last ten years has been officially highest in September and that the resent trend has been, that it rains more late in the season. Officially or not.

Posted by Sherlock on August 25, 2014 21:26

"Reader" should know that the real rainy periods are just after the sun crosses the latitude of your location, about May and October with the latter historically the wetter of the two periods. There has always been MUCH more rain in October than in any other month of the year on Phuket, perhaps twice as much as in May.

Posted by Guenter Bellach on August 25, 2014 22:02

Rain does not cause flooding. Flooding is caused by peak intensity rain which is well beyond the design of most stormwater systems. The infrastructure required to cope during this period would be extremely expensive and an eyesore.
Let's consider the Patong catchment area of approximately 4 sq kms. Peak intensity, 1 year return frequency rain event estimated at 100 mm in 30 minutes.

400,000,000 litres of water in 30 minutes.
13,000,000 litres per minute
222,000 litres per second.

Peak runoff will occur when soils are saturated and at the time when rain which fell at the extreme of the catchment reached the storage area, ie flat area of Patong.
Peak run off could be as much as 60 % greater than average rain falling an would probably occur within 10-15 minutes of the rain event starting.
Peak flow would therefor be up to 355,000 litres per second, 355 cubic meters of water.

As the flat area of Patong is elevated only about 3 meters above high tide level, height available to generate flow is limited and velocity in any drainage system resulting from height would not exceed 2.5 m/second.
The required cross section of any pipe or culvert would be 75 meters wide and 2 meters deep. Alternatively 3 off 25 meters wide and 2 meters deep.

Rain catchment sumps, feeder pipes or culvets need to be designed to catch all water running down the roads. The road camber would need to be increased so as to effectively remove water to a sump. The sumps need to supply the main drain to the beach.
The main culverts or pipes have to discharge above sea level. If they are piped out under the sand and offshore, the size must be increased as the velocity head is lost by back pressure.

Can you see any authority allowing construction of 3 open culverts from the base of the surrounding Patong hills, across the flat, 25 meters wide each and discharge onto the beach in 3 locations. It's not going to happen.

When the local authority acknowledges this is the requirement, applaud them for finally realising.

Anything less should be considered as either just talk or pissing into the wind.

Posted by Manowar on August 26, 2014 11:35

@Manowar

100mm of rain in 30minutes in Phuket???
I wonder did you get your figures right?
You are dreaming wet dream!

There is no rain of such intensity , which are in addition of such duration, in Thailand at all!

You should check figures for yesterday rain in Phuket with Thailand Meteorological Department Daily 26.07.2014. 7AM Daily Observation report
http://goo.gl/AyIoOu
that says:
In Phuket amount of rainfall in last 24hrs was 28.2mm, and total cumulative amount of rainfall for this year is 1207.4mm.

Such violent rains - in terms of intensity and duration - as 100mm in 30 minutes are extremely rare in this world, in Phuket this could be once -per -30 years event, like the one in March 2011- but even then it was estimated like - "sometimes over 50mm/hr".

No regular rain of such intensity in Phuket at all.

Patong drainage system is obviously inadequate , and takes of violent rain will not help.

Although I agree that to install infrastructure that cope with prolonged and relatively intensive rain is not feasible , so rarely to see floods under such circumstances is acceptable, not every time when rain if average intensity for rainy season falls.

Yes, back in Europe, we have 1-2hours floods once or twice per year too, as municipality is not keen to spend few hundreds millions on infrastructure upgrade, that otherwise doing fine - and rightly so.

Posted by Sue on August 26, 2014 12:34

Sue, as usual you have no idea what you are talking about, although you try very hard to present some intelligence on the topic, you are wrong.. Again.

Rain intensity is not based on yesterday's rainfall. It is based on long term analysis of expected intensity over what is called return frequency ( that is not how often you visit Phuket or your physo) referenced by such as 1 year, 2, 5, 10 or even 100 years. The periods have no relationship to one another except based on historical data what can be expected.
100 year is not 10 times greater than that of a 10 year. It is more likely to be 10-15 % greater range.

You know stuff all about the subject except what your Google brain presents to you so I suggest you stick to what you do know, whatever that may be.

For your information Sydney has a 60 minute peak intensity rain fall, 100 year event at 230mm and having seen a Phuket rain event in action, I can safely assume the conservative figure of 100mm in 30 minutes.
I look forward to you posting more inaccuracies for a topic which you have no knowledge whatsoever, have no idea of what you are posting actually means.
Google does make the unintelligent look intelligent to those having no knowledge

Posted by Manowar on August 26, 2014 13:39

I am with Manowar in his latest comment.
I live near Thalang and I have kept accurate rain water readings since 2011. Yes I have a rain gauge and at times I have recorded 100 to 100+ mm of rain in a 30 minute period. By the by Sue, Boat Lagoon gets the highest recorded rainfall of any other location on Phuket. It could flood in Patong and yet up on the northern end of island, no rain nor clouds at all. Leave your barstool and get out a bit more, google is not always your friend.

Posted by Duncan B on August 26, 2014 17:06

Duncan B, it would not surprise me if many high intensity rain events occur on Phuket annually but are unreported due to lack of monitoring equipment. Such an event can be widespread but is generally localised and can be less than 300m wide but would generally be expected to be between 1 and 2 km dissipating on either side. North Patong could experience it, the south may just experience heavy rain.

An island such as Phuket could have several areas that frequently have these events due to the natural landform and the majority never receiving anywhere near rain of such intensity.
The size of Patong and natural amphitheatre with steep hill surrounds and flat base provide ideal conditions for flooding with especially high peak water flows. Patong probably only exists because of these events in addition to sand build up on the beach providing resistance. A few hundred years ago the flat section of Patong would have been either a wetlands or swamp.
I have no doubt about the intensity of rain in Patong having witnessed it first hand about 2 and a half years ago. I have also witnessed a similar event at home with 76 mm of rain in 20 mins and did not even come close to the amount of rain during the Patong event.

Intensity and it's duration in relation to the natural localised land characteristics are what determines how bad flooding will be and how often.

Posted by Manowar on August 26, 2014 19:03

Manowar, remember how the boat lagoon road and the lower road in Samkong used to flood, well until they put in the big drains, now they don't flood at all. Patong still has to figure this out and wonder what the hang is going on? I say let them swim, but they will have a good market for condoms and butt plugs, as they don't want any of that water going anywhere near their family secret bits. 5555. To paraphrase your comment, they going to keep flooding. So glad I don't live there nor have to go there.

Posted by Duncan B on August 26, 2014 22:05

@Manowar @DuncanB

"100mm rainfall in 30 minutes in Phuket" is N-O-N--S-E-N-S-E-N-S-E

You guys are talking absolutely surreal things that simply can not happen in nature in Phuket and do not check with reality :

first, overall Phuket weather in terms of rainfall is without extremes, as well without historical extremes. There is never real floods and deluges on par with other parts of country, it simply never happens here as a matter of historical weather record.
The highest ever recorded MONTHLY rainfall is just under 700mm, and in Phuket a DAILY rainfall of above 100mm is extremely rare, it happened only during one-off event like on 29th March 2011 during 11 days of extreme rain in South East.
Yes, South East getting 100mm+ DAILY rainfall relatively often, and even Takua Pa /Ranong is less immune than Phuket.

100mm in 30 min means rainfall intensity of 200mm/hr - it HUGE EXTREME HYPER SUPER rainfall intensity , especially if it lasts for 30minutes - and it never happened in Phuket. Rainfall intensity recurs in Phuket in general are lower then in Bangkok, and peaks are rarely above 10mm/hr.

Phuket gets on average +/-2000mm ANNUALLY , and most wet months being 300-400 mm MONTHLY -and you are talking about REGULAR deluges of ca.100mm in 30 minutes??

There is no "violent rains" in Phuket (rainfall intensity above 50mm/hrs) , most of strongest are falling in lower part of "heavy rain" definition(10-50mm/hr- "heavy rain" forecast is 10-30mm/hr range , and "very heavy rain" i.e. 30-50mm/hr are one-off events).

Although in some narrow area of Phuket there could happen one-off isolated incident of rainfall intensity beyond any recorded statistics, it has no practical statistical un unitary value as being one-off in terms of time and location.

Manowar's thesis that these rains in Patong are REGULARLY of 100mm in 30 minutes, so it is absolutely normal what we see on streets afterwards, thus no investment in infrastructure are justified at all, is crap.

@Duncan B., assuming you are advanced hobby or retired meteorologist, and in general thong measurement in a methodically correct manner, I am so much suspicious up to the point if disbelief that you indeed measuring rainfall gauge with precise 30minutes interval - it simply doesn't happen , to catch both a wonder of nature expression and go over so many extra miles a practice of industry to measure every 6hrs(or sometimes 3hrs) - and this all at the right moment of time.. - assuming you are taking manual measurements ; if you would install automatic system, incl.laser, to take precise measurement of rainfall intensity , I afraid it would cover your whole yard, and even that would be not enough.
So, you probably taking a measure once daily, or at best , few times per day- so no need to extrapolate ca.100mm of daily rainfall on few exceptional days , that lasted much longer than 30minutes, to tales of "100mm in 30minutes", there is no such rains in Phuket wherever you live.

Moreover,
@Manowar , I see that Fear Has Big Eyes - don't be afraid of 25-30mm of total rainfall in Phuket. It could looks much worse than in Australia, but only because of inadequate infrastructure , not higher amount of rainfall in Sydney:

on average Sydney got the same +/-2000mm annually, but climate in NSW is much more VOLATILE - there are relatively often happen extreme patterns , up to ca.4500mm annually - but if never happens in Phuket, annual volatility is very low +/-25%, although monthly rainfall can jump like 500% it is still very low absolute figures - from 100mm MONTHLY to 500mm MONTHLY.

Australia and New Zealand in general are much much wetter places than Thailand and Phuket.
Phuket never experienced extremes of 500-800mm daily that recorded extremes in Australia.

But still your numerical fantasy of "230 in 60minutes in Sydney" is nothing more than a fantasy TRASH :
Bureau of Meteorology of Australian Government unlike a Thailand Meteorological Department collect data about periods of "intense rainfall duration/intensity " beside the daily figures and it is attributed to a rain event with particular ID and precise location , and made these data available to public :
these data are from 2010; I filtered out for the whole country only extreme rain events - in total 911 incidents up to date; ir can be downloaded in CSV format - done, then converted to Excel ; then added rain intensity calculation formula , and data sorted in descending order by rainfall intensity (altogether efforts of 6 minutes not leaving my iPad) :

the highest rainfall intensity 260mm/hr had a rain ID 3717 on 26.11.2010 4:20AM in VICTORIA state that lasted just *SIX* minutes and brought 26mm of rain.

EIGHT incidents of equal or ABOVE 200mm/hr intensity, that brought just 23-50mm in 6 to 15 minutes, and just two of them in NSW: NONE in Sydney
THIRTY incidents of 150-199mm/hr that only on one occasion in Ningi brought 100mm in 40 minutes (rain ID 3583 10.07.2010.), the rest total output in most cases 50mm or less, and most durations 10-15 minutes.

THREE of them in Sydney 19.02.2012. 10:00AM East Sydney 174mm/hr intensity but , sorry, just TEN minutes and 29mm of output..
19.02.2014. 11:30 AM Mount Kuring Gai 174mm/hr intensity 34mm in 12min
08.04.2012. 10:20 AM Turramurra 152 mm/hr 38mm 15 minutes
The rest of much smaller intensity.


So, you see, Manowar, "230mm weather event in just 60 minutes in Sydney" is a tale, and you behaving like an always cheating accountant , adding a zero here (Phuket rain of 10mm(max!!) in 30 minutes becomes 100mm in 30 minutes) and 230mm in Sydney in 160minutes just comes from your tale book to 60 minutes.


Phuket doesn't come even close to such figures, and in Thailand there is no such annual rain like somewhere in Australia or NZ like 6,000-11,000mm , and there is no such record daily rainfall of 400-800mm in Phuket like in NSW.

Please stop measure by the sight of Patong street after rain an amount and intensity of rainfall - it is WRONG , the state of Patong streets is only reflecting very pity state of infrastructure, that doesn't have to cope with volatility of Sydney weather .

Posted by Sue on August 27, 2014 00:17

Sue, once again you reconfirm that human nature is predictable. This may come as a shock to you but all answers to problems are not found on Google.
Look, I realise you are trying to contribute to a topic about which you have no knowledge whatsoever and I suppose we should appreciate the enjoyment your posts do provide. Occupants of both Fantasy and Dreamland are waiting in anticipation of your posts.
So returning back to the topic at hand, irain intensity has no relationship, to daily rainfall, seasonal or annual rain.
Intensity is the measure of quantity over time so simply, magnitude.
200 mm in 60 minutes has the same intensity as 3.3 mm in 1 minute. Duration in maintaining the level of intensity causes flooding problems.
If 3.3mm of rain falls in 1 minute it would be described as short heavy rain.
If 34 mm of rain fell in 10 minutes it would be described as a quick heavy rain storm.
When 100 mm falls in 30 minutes is would probably be classified as an extreme event or inundation.
The intensity for each of the above is the same. The first would not have any impact, the second May cause minor localised flooding and the latter may cause severe flooding.
The duration of the intensity enables the even to be classified into a rain event with expected return frequency usually referred to in years.
The first event listed, 3.3 mm in 1 minute, will occur numerous times during any given year but modelling of sampling equipment will not discriminate this 1 minute period from the equipments standard or preset sampling period of what maybe 10, 30 or even 60 minutes.
We then must consider how many rain gauges are actually installed. Unless such equipment was installed across the whole island every 500 m or so, most events will not be recorded. This does not mean they did not occur. It just means that Google won't give you the answers.
If we assume that a single rain gauge effectively provides details of events that occur within a 250m radius of its location, we can more than likely assume that the majority of peak rain events are not recorded.
I would suggest a figure of less than 5% of such events are accurately metered and for the remaining 95% we see the results but don't have accurate measurements. Again Google has failed us!
So, in you opinion, Phuket does not experience rain of such intensity and duration which I can only assume is because it's not found on Google. Maybe Google does not undetand you or what you are asking it. You could assume Google and most of the readers on Phuketwan are suffering similar issues.
Because Phuket has a tropical climate and I can obtain figures from the same environment in Australia, I will list you some similar event.
11 jan 2011 6 inches (150mm) of rain fell in Toowoomba, 11 dead, 59 missing. Please tell the family's no such event occurs.
16 Nov 1974, Praire, Qld 52mm in 12 min
1 Jan 1969, Gatton-Lawes, Qld, 53mm/ 12 min
1 Jan 1974, Gogango, Qld, 73mm/ 15 min
4 Dec 1940, Mary Valley, Qld, 89mm/20 min
11 march 1939, Nobby, Qld, 203mm/20 min
2 Oct 1989, Enoggera, Qld, 100mm/ 25min
28 Nov 1949, Bernarby, Qld, 102mm/ 25min
19 March 1963, Wamuran, Qld, 152mm /30min
24 feb 1913, Wegonning, Qld , 130mm/40 min
19Dec 1991, Townson, Qld, 176mm/40 min
4 Dec 1920, Florence,Qld, 230mm/60 min
20 Nov 1937, Gunyerwarilla, Qld, 270mm/80 min

These are taken from a single relatively small area in a similar tropical zone but of course, in your mind, they are infrequent because Sue can neither understand the topic nor find it on Google.

I am not sure how we can help you Sue, maybe get off the wacky tobacky for a while and you will find that knowledge cannot be obtained by a mouse and keystroke.

I do look forward to the next issue of Sueipedia, where limited information is placed into the blender to be mixed up, misused, misunderstood and presented as some sort of liquified garbage.

Posted by Manowar on August 27, 2014 07:46

@ man named Sue. A rainguage is a standardised metering devise used universally to measure the set about of little raindrops falling into a mouth opening of the collection tank, with graduations on it. These graduations denote the amount of water that has fallen over a given period. Now please cut out your idiot responses to stuff you know eF all about. Are you one of the reasons why the government now wants to bring in these new alcohol consumption laws? How long have you stayed here, I have been here more than 10 years continuously. The weight of the trees on your shoulders must be getting very heavy now, might also be a good time to do some government ordered cleaning up and cut the trees down? Chips on shoulders are easier to handle. Now, spoken very slowly please, stay away from the bar.

Posted by Duncan B on August 27, 2014 08:06

@ Sue. We are all trying to see the world from your perspective, but we cant get our heads that far up our own bums. We can't even bend down that far, yes even after some heavy drinking. So pop your head out, look around, change is happening. Cut the non sensible comments please, you beginning to sound like mr know-it-all, whistle blower or arseterix.

Posted by Robin on August 27, 2014 08:23

to Thue a bar question please? This must be said with a tounge behind the teeth as in a toothy lisp. Thue, were does Noddy keep his armies? tick tock tick tock, ah wrong, the answer is up his sleevies.

Posted by Robin on August 27, 2014 08:48

Sue, I couldn't help myself, I tried hard not to read what you posted knowing full well it would be an uneducated and nieve attempt by you to present an uninformed opinion of a topic for which you have no understanding. Once again you have achieved my expectations and I can only say your knowledge is equal to those in charge of Phukets infrastructure over the last few decades.

You present the perfect example of why such problems exist being unable to comprehend the variable characteristics of the topic. Until Google finds a way to download intelligence on the topic being searched, this situation is likely to remain.

As with all your posts on most topics, your inability to differentiate between reality and the simplistic approach that information on line is accurate, comprehensive and sufficient in detail to assess such issues confirms why these issues continue unresolved.

Posted by Manowar on August 27, 2014 09:06

When they develop land here most developers do not install drainage but actually block the drains to give them extra land
Patong is changing into a large concrete slab with no drainage so the flooding is not going to go away

Posted by peter Allen on August 27, 2014 09:20

I predict an extremely intense post exceeding 200 lines, maybe even of record length, is currently being prepared and will be received shortly!

Posted by Manowar on August 27, 2014 10:00

Manowar & Sue, can you please exchange email addresses and keep your personal issues private please. Your posts are starting to get rather boring!!

Posted by phuket madness on August 27, 2014 10:14

Do Environmental Impact Assessments (EIA)even exist? Seems no one is ever denied a building permit ( assuming they apply.)

Posted by The Night Mare on August 27, 2014 13:25

- Manowar

Stop feeding the trolls and they will go away.

Posted by ThaiMike on August 27, 2014 13:26

@DuncanB

Are you one of the reasons why the government now wants to bring in these new alcohol consumption laws?

===

Dear DuncanB ,

Your comments may reflect well on your personal concerns. FYI I hardly drink any alcohol in tropical climate - last time a glass of wine in March, before few shots of Chivas on NY Eve - not because of medical or similar reasons, but simply because I feel absolutely well in such climate w/o it.
However I can do easily 1l of whiskey in a cold climate within a night in the club, and without material hangover , as I attend gym&sauna 6 days per week.
And in regard of drinks here my preference is fresh juices and especially various mixes. It is good to see that even more choices are becoming available here over the time.
And I'm unable to recall when I last time consumed any product of Coca Cola Inc.

cut out your idiot responses to stuff you know eF all about.
===
I'm afraid you again reflect on yourself - since if your raingauge is w/o automatics ,then,
first, those claimed "30 minutes intervals" of collecting data is , erh, bluff in a purest firm,
second, pls revise your understanding of arithmetical operators GREATER and LESSER, as if there is hardly once per year Phuket statistically got more than 100mm per day, there is no way to have 100mm(or 100mm+) in 30minutes - as claimed by you - on regular basis - even in small localized areas , as such reading (200mm/hr and of duration of statistical importance )were never reporting at all on Phuket ever, bar on regular basis - even taking into consideration that there are too few stations, if they do not catch such *regular* weather pattern at all, probably such pattern doesn't make an impact at all and most probably doesn't exist.
100mm in 30 min- there is no such figures here, may be for 1 whole day once or twice per year.

Posted by Sue on August 30, 2014 21:20

@ Sue. I would never enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed person. You are such a smart-arse, I bet you could sit on a bowl of ice cream and tell me what flavour it is.

Posted by Duncan B on August 30, 2014 22:26