Really? Who would have thought it !

Scape and Goats

So if they do have DNA samples from the Hoe, how about testing some other people again to see who it matches.

Posted by Discover Thainess on September 11, 2015 13:19

Very good news - albeit a year late. Two questions now arise: Is there compensation for the two wrongly accused; and when does the other suspect submit his DNA?

Posted by Sam Wilko on September 11, 2015 13:29

DT

...there is one DNA sample that has been famiously collected, in public - and about which the police claims that it never recahed them - may a sampel of that DNA will now finally arrive?

That trick on publis looks like a new kind of planking or whatever - DNAing - taking a video of yourself giving DNA swab - and oops, teh sampel arrives to the Nowhere county.

Actually it is almost like all males normally should be tested on the island, but I'm not sure about whether technology Thaialnd have in hands will allow it and what it it will cost like.

Posted by Sue on September 11, 2015 14:01

The hoe was in a public place before and after the crimes. Many people touched and used it for its normal use: digging.
Scape goats? Then how come semen and saliva DNA matching both the defendants was found in the girls body, two weeks before their arrests?
The handling of the samples taken involves a lot of people along the chain of custody of the sealed samples extracted from her body in the forensic laboratory in Bangkok. Impossible to arrange a conspiracy, in my opinion. There are many many decent people in this country.
Of course the defendant's lawyers are in their professional obligation to blur the case in order to save these two accused men.

Posted by facts not rumors on September 11, 2015 14:11

Hi " Fact Not Rumors" , police accused the suspects that they killed the victims by this garden hoe, but experts said that not DNA of suspects found on the hoe but DNA of other two men. This garden hoe is the only one tested by independent forensic expert, impartial to police. Fact is very simple, if two accused boys killed the victims, why their DNA is not there.

Posted by Raza on September 11, 2015 14:52

Mr Miller was seen having an argument at a local bar with a couple of local men earlier that evening.

I sure hope the police was prudent enough to get DNA samples from those men and if not, then it's about time they did so and submit it to independent testing in addition to their own.

The fact that police claimed a DNA match on the hoe which has now been disputed more or less undermines the credibility of every forensic evidence tested by the police so far.

Posted by Herbert on September 11, 2015 15:19

The police never claimed they found DNA of the defendants in the hoe, as they themselves declared during previous sessions of the trial. This is a fact.
The many different forensics involved, that declared in the previous sessions, explained possible reasons of this lack of DNA of the defendants in the shaft of the hoe.
Why the defendants DNA is not found in the hoe remains an incognita.
The hoe stained with blood and other biological residues of the victims was used or touched before and after the crimes by among others the gardener of one of the beach bars, the owner of that bar and others. The DNA of these was checked and does not match with the semen found inside the body of the girl and the saliva found in her left breast. All this was checked by forensics in Bangkok two weeks before the police detained the defendants. All this has been declared during the ongoing trial.
The DNA of the defendants and the semen and saliva found in the girl's body is a perfect match, and these samples inside and outside the girl's body were collected in Bangkok two weeks prior to the defendants detention.
The local forensic team did not touch the bodies of the victims except to move them on the beach as water was rising and to put them in the body bags, following instructions from the central forensic lab in Bangkok.
Thailand forensic procedures, as have been clearly established during the trial declarations are up to the FBI procedures and standards, whether some people like it or not.
It is, in my opinion, very unfair to automatically assume that things do not work in Thailand.
The bodies of the victims were wrapped in body bags and sent to Bangkok central forensic laboratory where the samples were taken by some complete different teams and studied following the exact written protocols that are in place and are according to international standards.
Fortunately the defendants have a team of seven very well reputed lawyers defending them, so if they are found guilty there would be no doubts.
These lawyers refused themselves to get a new test of the DNA samples found in the body of the girl as offered by the tribunal of judges. Why?
The issue of the alleged previous argument of Davis Miller or MS Witheridge still remains unproven; as has been seen during the ongoing trial. This alleged argument belongs to the rumors.

Posted by Facts not Rumors on September 11, 2015 16:32

why surprised. Full repect to Khun Porntip if police would get her involved from the beginning they would not look so incompetent.
But as you know very well just takes one individual to decide the guilt fact or not and then that is what happens. Todays reporting and social media they cannot get away with this anymore they need to move out of the past and do actual police work.

Look at bombing suspect lead out in yellow T shirt must be guilty same colour shirt.

Posted by Michael on September 11, 2015 16:40

All males who were on the island at the time of the murders should now be DNA tested

Posted by Paul on September 11, 2015 18:55

Koh Tao local people have been reported to have excellent command of English ))

Posted by Sue on September 11, 2015 19:31

The head of the Island's son was named as a prime suspect and scarpered off to BKK a few hours later (moderated)

Posted by william on September 11, 2015 20:13

Looks like a spindoctor has migrated from the visa and defending another total cockup of an investigation. Guesswork and falsicies have worked well in the past to solve crimes. How many innocents have been subject to the same "perfect investigations" by these agencies.

Posted by MoW on September 11, 2015 20:17

Alan,
You are right and you may remember my comments only days after these two were arrested. I dont know whether the 2 are guilty or not and no matter what the eventual outcome of this case is, I doubt many people will have confidence in the way the investigation was handled.

They may be guilty and get off due to the sloopy investigation or the may be innocent but still found guilty.

It is unusual but when this trial ends and no matter what the outcome, there will continue to be doubts on the credibility of evidence both for and against a conviction.

Posted by MoW on September 11, 2015 20:40

Would this happen in a G20 country. As MOW states whatever the outcome people will not have faith. Another shame on Thailand.

Posted by Developing on September 11, 2015 21:41

MoW

there are seems to be gross violations of criminal procedure in this case - those that in other countries would be of much heavier weight in exonerating of accused. Procedure rules normally should be followed very strictly, and they are the tool how fair trial is delivered.

Still, legal process may get to the real facts that took a place in a real life, and attach to these facts a an attribute of valid, admissible ,relevant, trusted piece of evidence, or - it may not, regardless whether rules of procedure followed or not.

Even if procedure botched, still facts can be technically established correctly.

Western thinking gives a priority to universal application of human rights - here it would mean, that in Sates, Europe, and probably on the 5th Continent too. botched procedure would exonerate apparent criminals, incl. murderers, even if you have well-grounded belief that the one is guilty, but which fails short of getting a guilty verdict in a criminal trial standard. Say, Miranda rights have not been observed, then no guilty verdict is delivered.
Yes, one murderer may walk away, but still insistence on strict following of procedure would bring overall positive effect on justice in many more cases.

Here, like in many other countries, universal upholding of fair trial standards, i.e. ultimately of basic human rights, is not seen as a real value. Partly, because people do not understand what that is all about, and that universal application of human rights standard is more beneficial, than bending it to a preprogrammed result when one made mistake in investigation or simply don't understand how to both to resolve a crime and be in compliance with procedure rules.

Two accused in KT trial have not taken active approach of bringing a kind of alibi evidence that would exonerate them from the accusation.
The tactics they employed is merely rebuffing prosecutor's arguments.

Yes, procedure has been severly compromised - and hence significant part of prosecutor's arguments.

But rial, again in violation of universal human rights, is virtually semi-closed, it is not "public" in real sense of the word, so we have quite limited understanding what is going on here. Even more, we have even fewer glimpses on actual pieces of evidence that the court file holds in.

Let's wait a month or so for a verdict delivered, then it will be possible to calibrate more precisely what is an extent of botching , and what is a strength of evidence and rebuttal that defense team brought - and how it was perceived by a court.

Posted by Sue on September 11, 2015 21:42

Al, wind your head in. Stick to being a journo you let your ego get the better of you.

Posted by Developed on September 11, 2015 22:13

Hi Sue, the trial is VERY public, not ???semi public?????, as anybody can be in the room provided there is space available. The press is there, several independent observers are there, several human right activists are there, families are there, if you want to see it, just go to Samui next session and if there is any empty seat in the room, I am sure nobody will oppose your presence there provided you do not take pictures nor notes in the court room (as in many other countries)
I wonder if any court in the WEST, the self-proclaimed ???conscience of the world?????, would allow this type of scrutiny from so many NGOs and observers present all the time in the room.
Let us let the three judges ponder all the facts, as they have shown excellent professionalism during all sessions.

Posted by Facts not Rumors on September 11, 2015 22:44

Is it a Jonny Cochran/OJ Simpson:"If it doesn't fit, you must acquit" moment in this trial? Why should there be no DNA on the hoe? That is an interesting question.

In Germany the federal police was running wild, as there was one serial murderer/thief, a woman, who by chance showed up at a lot of different crime scenes, or better her DNA. Cop killer, multiple murders, break ins, very strange, later it turned out, that a lady working for a DNA test sample producer contaminated a batch of DNA sticks with her DNA. As they were put to use over the years, she showed up. Good she was otherwise not aktenkundig. Or the GSG 9 would have ransacked her house, as she was deemed a mastermind reckless criminal.

Posted by Lena on September 12, 2015 00:03

Al, are you saying the G20 should look to Thailand for their murder trials and how to conduct them. Get real. My earlier comment is not to do with bigotry but to do with being realistic. Al I know you like to support the less developed but being delusional is of no help to anyone, you old codger.

Posted by Developed on September 12, 2015 02:00

Rumors not facts,
yes, courts in advanced countries with adequate laws and due process allow any reporter or person access to the court with exception of certain privacy related cases such a family law.

And the reason why is because courts represent the people and judge a case on behalf of the people, all the people not just for the benefit of the chosen few.

Posted by MoW on September 12, 2015 06:13

It appears @facts not rumors. Is taking everything the RTP and prosecution stated as fact. With everything else being a rumor. Perhaps he should wait until the judges decision before making such assumptions.

Posted by Josh Hector on October 9, 2015 13:06